The official way

[Katia]

Katia,
To an old man like me, mores and what is deemed "inappropriate" seem to have changed so much over the years. In my young day, ladies were supposed to be cherished and certainly not embarrassed or disrespected. Maybe some of the changes in the "status" of the fair sex - though much needed - have brought some unhappy consequences.

Alan

Only because respect didn't come with an alleged change in status. Sometimes people forget you may want to be treated like a human being even if you don't want to be locked away on some pedestal.

Certainly the social and sexual inhibitors that constrained behaviour, particularly female behaviour, with previous generations have largely disappeared. So is this the reason behind the activity described by the OP? And should women who choose to exploit these new found freedoms then deny the corollary of this, namely unwelcome attention from men?😜😜😜

Please see again my post #18. There is a reason male-on-female unwanted attention is not the same as the opposite as it's based on a long skeevy history, a sense of entitlement, of seeing women as objects, and on fear of violence stemming from either actual threat or knowing the possibilities.

it is also, as others have noted, a backlash-- "if you guys can do it to us, we can do it to you."

[neloon]

Although the OP "consented" to the assault, he has described it as "shocking" and "offensive" and, whether committed by either sex/gender would be technically illegal in both the UK and the US. Do we think it good for society that he did nothing? Should he have shouted loudly "Oi, what do you think you're doing?" Should he have gone over to the young lady and calmly given her a telling off (preferably in the presence of her friends)? The answer will obviously depend on the personality of the individual and opinions may differ on opposite sides of the Atlantic. What response will most promote mutual respect?

Alan

[Father Bill]

Although the OP "consented" to the assault, he has described it as "shocking" and "offensive" and, whether committed by either sex/gender would be technically illegal in both the UK and the US. Do we think it good for society that he did nothing? Should he have shouted loudly "Oi, what do you think you're doing?" Should he have gone over to the young lady and calmly given her a telling off (preferably in the presence of her friends)? The answer will obviously depend on the personality of the individual and opinions may differ on opposite sides of the Atlantic. What response will most promote mutual respect?

Alan

The personalit(ies) of the individuals makes a huge difference as I clumsily tried to point out in an earlier post (now edited out).

[Chris Hills]

Benning School for Wayward Boys Class of 1985, they must have added wayward somewhere in between.

Benning School for Boys Class of '88 "Chattahoochee Campus" when I was there...

[Chris Hills]

Kilt-wearing here in Scotland appears to take a very different path to that elsewhere. Here I know of no occasion when anything of the kind mentioned here would take place...

I sincerely hope that is true. However, I read an article just yesterday where a french model was doing a photo shoot with a kilted gent in Edinburgh (the gent being a well known local kilt maker... excuse me for forgetting his name) and in one of the published pics she was looking up his kilt. Obviously, he was recognized and when he was asked about it (thus this article) he went into great detail about his frustration that it seemed acceptable to others.

I am headed to Scotland in the spring (hopefully first of many trips) to visit family sites. I hope to find that the refinement of the Scots you allude to in your comments is true. Perhaps that is because wearing a kilt is normal dress there? Let me say that I have NEVER worn a kilt in the US without at least one woman (I hesitate to use the word lady) asking me what I am wearing under my kilt and occasionally, even actually pulling it up for a look. So, perhaps our refinement is less than yours, but after several years wearing a kilt occasionally with these experiences being the norm... my typical response has developed into "If I looked up your skirt or asked about your underwear you would call the cops". And then I leave it to them to think about. Perhaps I should be more "witty" or perhaps I should take them up on their offer. But as a happily married man of 30+ years and father/grandfather of ladies... anything else seems inappropriate.

As to the original thread, based on my experiences as a wayward youth... this type of behavior happens with regularity when booze and mixed genders collide. That shouldn't be a reflection on the overall morality of people in a specific country but rather a caution in all countries against spending time with a fist around a pint in public. Just speaking from my own perspective, anything that happens late at night with mixed genders and booze can lead to issues... with or without kilts!

[neloon]

Chris,
Speaking from memory, I think the kiltmaker in question was Howie Nicholsby who would not have been averse to cultivating a bit of publicity!
I hope, of course, that you will enjoy your visit to Scotland and I can assure you that your pleats will be safe from intrusion. As you remark in your last paragraph, misbehaviour of any kind is more likely to occur in the presence of alcohol but, the kilt being Scotland's national dress, any abuse of a kilted individual in Scotland is likely to incur communal wrath. In over 70 years, I think I have been asked "the question" only once and that quite rhetorically in a group setting.

Alan

[Riverkilt]

I am CRUSHED. All this time I had thought the official way was to use a Regimental Validator.

God knows I've seen ladies roaming highland games with them at the ready.

[Chris Hills]

... at least one woman has behaved inappropriately reinforces what I said earlier in that people from outwith Scotland regard a man wearing a kilt as strange and almost a subject of ridicule... -also- ... Scottish women are generally less precocious than their transatlantic cousins ...

First, thanks for giving the specifics to my response. I generally try to respond with greater detail and specificity so your addition of the kilt maker's name and your reinforcement that he found it offensive were helpful.

Second, let me be careful to say, I was raised by a lady, am married to a lady and have raise two daughters and now a granddaughter hopefully to behave as ladies. But that by no means makes me an expert on women. I am am not and will not attempt to speak to what they are thinking, nor am I trying to compare our women to any other country's women. Also, I am not attempting to say these behaviors would be the norm for all or even most woman. But, that fact that it happens all the time to my son's and I does reinforce your point that kiltwearing isn't the norm in the US. Despite the fact that I am on a wide range of websites and blogs learning about my culture and dress and hear so many talking about wearing kilts... other than my sons and an occasional parade, I have only seen another man in a kilt once in my entire life and that was a wedding last summer where the Scots men of the brides family chose to celebrate their heritage in a beautiful way. So, it is odd. There are supposedly more scots in the Appalachian mountains where I grew up and my Scots ancestors lived than in scotland but that hasn't translated into kilts galore as implied by all the websites. I hope that at some point in the future we see more of that celebration and that our heritage becomes so normal that seeing a kilt isn't odd. But at this point in time, I have no idea where all of these supposed kilt wearing men live or express themselves. Thanks so much for the good discussion on this topic.

[Father Bill]

To say that it happens a lot on this side of the pond may have more to do with the company one keeps.

Over the years, I've been asked twice, both teasingly, once stupidly (but only briefly) all three times by women, and no, not that's when I've not had my collar on and I've never been touched or approached for a touch with or without the collar. That's in Southwestern Ontario Canada, and also on cruises with predominantly Americans.

If you hang out in bars and wild party scenes, well yes, you will be cultivating a different crowd and there will be different behaviours. If you hang out with drunks, juveniles or juvenile people, you will get juvenile behaviour.

Many kilted days and that's my total experience with that sort of nonsense.

[Riverkilt]

On the other front; while certainly not socially appropriate and perhaps technically illegal, there is no chance someone involved in "What's under the kilt?" fun and games is going to be sent to jail or prison as a sex offender. I'm a licensed therapist by trade and have worked with rapists and sex offenders for years. These days treatment and testing is quite thorough and even if somehow a "What's under the kilt?" participant was arrested the pre-trial assessment and testing would quickly eliminate them from the ranks of sex offenders.

Some years ago it was common for police officers who caught drunks relieving themselves in the park, or in an alley, to arrest them for indecent exposure - which put them on a sex offender track. It didn't take long for the courts to demand the police cease and desist from such charges for that offense. The charge is now "Criminal Littering" with the used booze being the litter....a "Liter of Litter" if you will....

I was kilted for Thanksgiving with friends last week. It didn't take long for three ladies to band together and ask "The Question." Like most of us I have dozens of responses at the ready. The one I chose was polite, but graphic. Then THEY took offense? Hello, ladies - you set the ball in motion. From there we had the usual discussion about what would happen to me if I'd asked what was under their skirts.

Its always a relief when I'm all geared up for "The Question" and instead the lady asks what tartan my kilt is... It does get tiring having to answer the same inane question over and over and over and over again. Sometimes, in frustration, I find put a wee bit more bite into my response than is called for.