Too Traditional?

[ThistleDown]

Huh, now that's interesting. I hadn't heard that particular tradition before. So the cromach and Balmoral are only appropriate when worn with jacket and tie? I would have thought that these were more practical items that wouldn't be dependent on the level of dress.

That's the problem, isn't it? Some of us are speaking about today and some about yesterday. Today we do not wear bonnets except if the weather is foul or we are about to do some marching with the clan or something. Yesterday we did and all the old photos on which today's discussion is cast are just that -- yesterday. Tradition lives and moves, as we've all said and agreed, and today we carry a cromach and wear a jacket and tie. It's hard to explain, but when we set aside the jacket we set aside the stick, too. Today.

[artificer]

That's the problem, isn't it? Some of us are speaking about today and some about yesterday. Today we do not wear bonnets except if the weather is foul or we are about to do some marching with the clan or something. Yesterday we did and all the old photos on which today's discussion is cast are just that -- yesterday. Tradition lives and moves, as we've all said and agreed, and today we carry a cromach and wear a jacket and tie. It's hard to explain, but when we set aside the jacket we set aside the stick, too. Today.

Again- perfectly illustrating the disconnect between "Knowing" things from pictures and the wisdom accumulated from living the experiences.
Thanks again, Rex, for helping us to view "how things are done" in the present.

ith:

[ThistleDown]

ThistleDown, I have primary descriptions of kilts being worn in trench warfare during World War I. If you go back too far into the nineteenth century, the kilt, as you know it today, did not exist, rather it was box pleated. I have primary descriptions from the late eighteenth century of people of the Western Islands that would lead me to think the kilt is, perhaps, the only clothing they wore: no trousers.
That was more along the line of what I was thinking; sorry.

Yes, I understand, Ted. We know there were many who wore the kilt exclusively not too long ago (my great grandfather, for one), but today the kilt has been superseded by far better garments for farming and fishing and the like. Neither is the kilt worn in active service in the same way it was worn in the trenches of the Great War.

[opositive]

i think that this is getting close to my postultate--that the current standards are based on a more exclusive paradigm based in large part on what the victorian revivalists propounded, as opposed to the less exclusive, more common, more practical garb of more regular folk in the not so distant past. i believe that making a kilt more for everyday wear is "taking it back" as a practical item and returns it to its "traditional" and historical roots, rather than a formal, exclusive item as defined more recently.

and i do not mind if i am wrong.. i keep throwing such ideas out there to see if i am wrong. google searches, threads and books read do not an expert make.

[CMcG]

That's the problem, isn't it? Some of us are speaking about today and some about yesterday. Today we do not wear bonnets except if the weather is foul or we are about to do some marching with the clan or something. Yesterday we did and all the old photos on which today's discussion is cast are just that -- yesterday. Tradition lives and moves, as we've all said and agreed, and today we carry a cromach and wear a jacket and tie. It's hard to explain, but when we set aside the jacket we set aside the stick, too. Today.

This is a gem, ThistleDown. I think details like this are at the essence of being able to separate today's tradition from yesterday's. You've given us a nice way of re-framing what "too traditional" could mean: ways of wearing the kilt that aren't exactly historical (like great kilts and claymores) but still belong to an older way of doing things.

Now, some elders may have lived through very different times and wish to continue to do things the same way, which is well within their purview. Some people from a younger generation may also decide that they prefer yesterday's way of doing things, which is their choice. A central motivation for continuing this discussion is furthering the Rabble's ability to make an informed decision about how they wish to engage with THCD.

[Nick the DSM]

"Yesterday is but today's memory, tomorrow is today's dream"

As it has been many times, styles change. But more they change, they still stay the same. In some ways. I do think many of those photos and traditions of yesterday are still present and carried out today. However, style is individual.

I think service wear is a bit different. Fatigues are worn differently by civilians aren't they? That's a bit of a stretch to use as an analogy though.

[ThistleDown]

I do think many of those photos and traditions of yesterday are still present and carried out today. However, style is individual.

But the photos you refer to were taken in the Scotland of yesteryear, Nick. What is it about us that convinces you our culture has not grown as the culture of your part of America has in the same time-frame? Why must we be stuck in the past by an image glued on us by another culture? Our traditions are evolving ones, just as yours are.

[Jock Scot]

My word this is such a valuable thread. Sadly though, only a very few will read it and start to understand how and why the Scots have worn the kilt in he past and far more importantly, how and why the Scots wear the kilt now. I think only now after well over 400 posts, are non Scots(sorry, I cannot think of another way of putting it) really starting to understand the whens, whys and how's of Scots kilt-wearing.

Starry eyed perceptions built on mis-information, myth and misconceptions are hard to loose and it seems, even harder to explain the errors, once they have taken hold! But at last I am starting to think that the message is getting through.

We all have seen the posts, dozens of them, from those that visit Scotland who say that kilt wearing Scots are hard to find, alright some might be seen playing the pipes at some tourist spot, the occasional shop assistant might wear the kilt and these days, I note that some coach drivers wear the kilt and good for them. However most Scots do not and never have worn the kilt full time. What most Scots have done and still do, is pick the occasion, or more likely the occassion picks them and then dress to it. It seems to me that those outwith Scotland dress first and try to make their chosen attire fit the event, with sometimes --------not always---- disastrous results.

Now there is nothing wrong with wearing the kilt full time, there is nothing wrong wearing the kilt a lot, but traditional you will not be.There is nothing wrong(well, not a hanging offence anyway!) with over-doing one's attire if one so chooses, but it is certainly not traditional. If you want to wear the kilt to this ,or that event, because the event is appropriate then that is traditional,or if on occasion the mood takes you to wear the kilt for an event(even going shopping in town) then that is traditional too for those with probably more time on their hands than most. The trick, skill even, is the judgement of the kilt-wearer to pick the right attire for the right occasion. Some, even some Scots(ever more I am afraid), do not have the experience to get the combination right.

In passing, it is also traditional to know when not to wear the kilt and shocking and unpalatable though it maybe to some, these occasions can and do arise.

[Dale Seago]

What most Scots have done and still do, is pick the occasion, or more likely the occassion picks them and then dress to it. It seems to me that those outwith Scotland dress first and try to make their chosen attire fit the event, with sometimes --------not always---- disastrous results.

Yes, I suspect so; it certainly seems to fit much of what I've seen and experienced here.

In passing, it is also traditional to know when not to wear the kilt and shocking and unpalatable though it maybe to some, these occasions can and do arise.

Agreed. I attended a invitation-only special event last week. On receiving the invitation, at first I was wondering which kilt to wear. . .for perhaps five seconds or so. I ended up going in a suit and tie -- as did pretty much every other male I saw there.

[Nick the DSM]

But the photos you refer to were taken in the Scotland of yesteryear, Nick. What is it about us that convinces you our culture has not grown as the culture of your part of America has in the same time-frame? Why must we be stuck in the past by an image glued on us by another culture? Our traditions are evolving ones, just as yours are.

I really get what you are saying. You're correct, why must we be stuck in the past? Even with the evolution of highland dress, you can still see people wearing examples of the past, no? Really wish I could bring examples with pictures. But there's still the aspect of dressing "old school" for lack of a better term. Maybe not dressing in '50s TCHD but possibly even '80s?

I'm just trying to point out that even with evolution, there's still shadows of the past. Like those who wear the goathair sporrans on this forum, is that a 30s style? Still looks great in this age, right?