A question on ethics...

[Chris Webb]

Todd,

I'll look into the other books you mentioned. It's said that sociology is more an art than a science and Webb's book is highly sociological.

I know that there were kilted members of Washington's Army but I can't find the source to save my life. I had done some research trying to find proof that we are actually healthier wearing kilts when I came across a quote from a letter to Washington seeking permission to wear 'the garb of our forefathers' rather than the normal trousers. It was noted that the 'kilted' soldiers did indeed fare better during the harsh winter than trousered soldiers. Exactly who these men were was not mentioned.

Anyway, I'll keep trying to find that quote.

My main point, though, stand as written.

Thanks,

Chris

[Retro Red]

My two cents worth...

I kind of lean toward the attitude of - hey, I live in America; I can wear any d@#^ tartan kilt I want!

And here's a little something I've read that might help sooth the conscience of our more traditionally oriented brothers - "In reality, the chief of a Clan would ingather any stranger, of whatever family, who possessed suitable skills, maintained his allegiance and, if required, adopted the Clan surname."

So, are you feeling like a Murray today? Than wear that Murray tartan with pride! As for tomorrow, well, it's not like the Scots were never known to switch allegiances... :rolleyes:

On a side note, that brings to mind the forgotten "Scottish" verse of the song "That's Amore." It goes like this (sing along) -

If the tartan you've seen,
Is ITI number 219,
That's a Murray...

Keep a smile on, folks!
.
.

[way2fractious]

...the kilt is no longer Scotish, gentlemen, it is American. The whole kilt get-up may still be Scotish, but the kilt itself, no, it's bigger than Scotland now ... it's American.

I agree with your original premise that the American way is to adopt the best parts of contributing cultures, but I have to disagree with the quote above. I also agree with your statement that the Americanization of kilts has developed newer materials, but disagree with the implication that wool is an obsolete material (and, I suppose, those who ply the manual trade of wool kiltmaking.)

This forum welcomes a very broad range of kilt wearers from around the world, each of whom has much personal experience to contribute. I have found the discussions to be lively, civil, and enriching. As much as I love America, it has no exclusive hold on the market of ideas. Indeed, if Americans collectively were to hold this view, the very sources of new, good ideas could dry up.

By the way, your first two posts have been well-written and thought-provoking. Welcome to the discussions.

[toadinakilt]

Wow, what a discussion I hope everybody had a great Easter, I've been off for a bit...

I have to agree with James in his original post...I find the flag kilts somewhat demeaning to the flags in question...

And I don't wish ever to wear a tartan to which I have no claim. I WILL be purchasing a USMC kilt at some point, when my brother goes through with his life-long wish to enlist...I suppose I can claim that.

But I think that tartans should be kept special and individual for the clans/units/organizations that they represent. Otherwise, IMHO, there is not much point in even naming them.

[kiltedjaz]

Why do you wear a kilt? Do you wear a kilt because you like the comfort and look of a kilt, or do you wish to bring the traditional highland look back into fashion?

Back into fashion ??? I wasn't aware that the traditional 'Highland look' had ever gone 'out of fashion', if in fact it ever was IN 'fashion'. It certainly is not a 'fashion thing here in Scotland or with Scotsmen. When it comes to 'fashion' kilts or looks etc...look no further than the Utilikilt !!!

[BLAZN]

Right excellant discussion I have provoked.

Of course you can fall back to old traditions and wear what is avalable at the weavers shop :rolleyes:
So now a days just about any coulour is avalable

Ah yes. As anyone who has done substantial research knows, the tartan did not always represent a particular family. This concept is actually fairly new. I have seen many times, myself, mention that most Scotsmen simply wore what they could get their hands on or could afford. Great point to make here.

Coming full circle, if there is to be any validity to the kilt as we know it, we need to see it as more than just a sensible way to dress: rather it is something linking us to our heritage, a heritage of which we are, or should be proud. A heritage of which we cannot cherry pick the bits we like and ignore the bits we feel do not suit our wishes of the moment.

It is our choice, we either buy into the entire package as an entire package: or we throw it out of the window and lose any right to claim that wearing the kilt is anything other than a possibly eccentric, albeit sensible way of dressing.

And, thus, in my case, without having proven any sort of link to the Scottish heritage, I would therefore have no "right" to dress myself in such a sensible piece of clothing. As you make it appear, one must have the heritage in order to don the kilt. I, as currently beknownst, do not have any Scottish blood flowing in my veins (though I very well could; I shall have to revisit my geneology more closely) and therefore should not be wearing ANY kilt, regardless of what the kilt in and of itself represents.

Why do you wear a kilt? Do you wear a kilt because you like the comfort and look of a kilt, or do you wish to bring the traditional highland look back into fashion?

If you wear a kilt because you like the comfort of it, and the look then I'd say wear whatever tartan you like. I suspect, like many newly converted kilties, you prefer the comfort of the kilt, and don't care much for the whole "Scottish" look. So, while there might be times when you wear a sporran, or kilt hose with flashes, there are probably many more when you find yourself in sneakers, or work boots. Do you wear traditional styled shirts with your kilt, or whatever t-shirt catches your eye in the morning? If you think your more of a comfort loving kilt wearer then there really aren't any rules. You wear it how you want to, and whatever tartans you like. The only exception I could imagine, would be to put together a formal outfit for occassions that warrant it. For such an outfit I would find a tartan relavant to your life or history, as you never know who you'll end up rubbing elbows with at formal functions.

Now, if your kilt wearing is geared towards reproducing traditional highland dress, you've got more rules to follow.

Good luck.

For the most part, I wear a kilt because of the sharp appearance and the comfort. I also wear kilts as part of my RenFaire attire in which I assume, with no disrespect toward anyone, the personna of Sheumais MacGwilym (a name into which much research was made and which has an actual meaning... care to know the meaning behind the name, just ask). Where I have not fully developed the "character" as of yet, I have developed him to the point where I can say he is a Scotsman.

{snipped for brevity}
So the question of whether this or that mode of dress is ethical, while related, is distinct from the question of how others may or may not be offended by it.

Clothing designed to be offensive (vulgar t-shirts, or clothing with racist or bigoted slogans or symbols) is unethical for that reason, yes. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about a positive symbol, like tartan, and whether or not it is possible for someone to be offended if you don't follow their percieved version of "the rules."

I, then must admit that I phrased my questioning wrong. At this point I feel that the real question should be "Would the majority be offended by..." and this given that the understanding that the general populace would be none the wiser either way... so it would have to be the majority of those that "know better."

While I do advocate trying to get a tartan that you do have a connection to (or a tartan that has no connections at all - my Braveheart for instance), you can never satisfy all the rules unless you can prove direct patralinial linteage to a Clan, or have proof that your family came from a specific district.

Well... I could wear the Indiana tartan if it weren't so horrible looking.


As for the wearing of the Saltire Tartan... I find myself somewhat curious about something. How many of the fellows here who have denounced the wear of a Saltire Tartan kilt as being offensive and disresectful own one of the XMarkstheScot.com t-shirts? I only ask because inclusion of the X and the coloration of the shirt allude to the Scottish flag (the design is after all based on the site logo which has the Scottish flag in it). Is the t-shirt disresectful, or does the disresect come from sitting on the flag?

I have searched many places to determine whether or not I was "allowed" to wear the Black Watch tartan. I have not found any information that would suggest I cannot wear it... everything I've read basically says the Black Watch tartan is a generic governmental tartan which anyone with a military background has a "right" to wear.
Admittedly speaking, I would find my kilt collection pitifully stunted were I to not wear tartans representing clans I do not belong to. There is no Warren tartan (Warren being my surname), there is no Carroll tartan (my mother's maiden name), there is no Ihrig tartan (one of the wife's families), no Hamilton tartan (another of the wife's families), no Chandler tartan (wife's maiden name), and I find the Indiana tartan offensive in its looks. So far, I'm limited to the USN tartan (active duty Navy for 12 years, with 11 to go) and the XMarks tartan (which is very hard to come by, as we all know). I wouldn't feel right sporting the Hawaiian tartan as I dislike living in Hawaii. So i guess I'll be wearing a lot of solid and camoflage or generic plaid kilts.

[bubba]

Yes, there is a Hamilton tartan. Several in fact. I have a kilt in the Hamilton tartan from USA Kilts. My mother is a Hamilton.

[Moosehead]

there is no Carroll tartan (my mother's maiden name),

Ah, but you see, there is. Carroll is, in fact, O'Carroll and is represented through Clan Cian, which has its own tartan. Which opens up the wearing of many of the Irish tartans as well.

[ronstew]

I, then must admit that I phrased my questioning wrong. At this point I feel that the real question should be "Would the majority be offended by..."

I was wondering when we'd hear back from you, Blazn. Time zones, huh?

What I don't care for about that Saltire kilt is that there is a big Scottish flag on your bum. It is cool at first blush, but upon reflection I find it tacky. The Union Kilts with flags on their aprons (see the UK home page), while not remotely my thing, at least don't put the flag on your bum. I just got my Xmarks t-shirt today, and the Saltire-based logo is nowhere near my rump. I would have been happier without the big logo on the back, but it's just a t-shirt, not a Scottish national symbol in the way a kilt is.

Having said that, if you want one, go get it! Wear it proudly. And if I meet you while you're wearing it, I'll buy you a beer. A good Canadian beer at that!

But if you are open to the Saltire, why not go after one of the generic Scottish tartans? Or, as Moosehead points out, one of the generic Irish ones? Any Welsh in you? Some of the new Welsh tartans are spectacular.

Now, the Xmarks tartan is not cheap, but right now there is a window open for ordering three yards before run 2b. PM Steve if interested.

Being named Stewart, born in Nova Scotia, living in British Columbia, Canada, with a mother named Davies, and married to a girl out of Cork, I have claim to about a hundred distinct tartans. So while I can sympathise, I will never share your problem. At least you have a navy tartan. AFAIK, there is no Canadian one for me.

(BTW, I just looked up saltire in the Wikipedia and learned that the word refers to the big X and not specifically to the Scottish flag).

[BLAZN]

Yes, there is a Hamilton tartan. Several in fact. I have a kilt in the Hamilton tartan from USA Kilts. My mother is a Hamilton.

Where is it listed? I did my search on the House of Tartan web site. Perhaps I should have found something more exhaustive.

Ah, but you see, there is. Carroll is, in fact, O'Carroll and is represented through Clan Cian, which has its own tartan. Which opens up the wearing of many of the Irish tartans as well.

This, however opens up a question as to whether I belong to any of the septs mentioned on the Clan Cian web site. I did visit it, but I'm not sure if the Carroll I can claim is the one in question.