Why hand-sewn?

[bubba]

Barb, send me a kilt, 42 x 43 x 22.5, and I'll evaluate it and if it passes the Bubba testing I'll certify you. :rolleyes:

[Barb T]

Hmmm - interesting thought!! What shall we call the Bubba certification?!?

Barb

[Riverkilt]

There may be something up. A quick Google turns up Carol Fitzherbert with MacIsaac Kiltmakers up in St. Peter's, Nova Scotia and a LOT of Keith Kilt School certified kiltmakers in Scotland advertising their services with the Keith Kilt School certification prominent.

Many of the Scottish kiltmakers certified by the Keith Kilt School have a link on their webpage to the Scottish Qualifications Authority...so there's apparently more oversite to the certification than just the school itself.

I've yet to be able to find the kilt part of the SQA yet though...a pretty extensive site overseening many areas.

Ron

[Riverkilt]

Scottish Qualifications Authority
The Scottish Qualifications Authority is the national body in Scotland responsible for the development, accreditation, assessment, and certification of qualifications other than degrees

And then there's Helean Kiltmakers in Dunedin, New Zealand where kiltmaker Ann Corey Advertises on her webpage

Only Kiltmakers in the Southern Hemisphere
to hold the Scottish Qualifications Authority Certificate
in Traditional Handcraft Kiltmaking skills.

Hector Russel's website proudly advertises

SQA's Traditional Handcraft Kiltmaking AwardThe Hector Russell kiltmaking workshop was recently approved by the Scottish Qualification Authority to offer its kiltmakers the SQA's Traditional Handcraft Kiltmaking Award. Hector Russell Kiltmaker becomes the first retail kiltmaker to offer its staff this qualification which will provide them with the industry's first nationally recognised training award.



Kathy Lare's website speaks to her kiltmaking training.

Kathy began to order so much tartan from the mills in Scotland that she caught the attention of Master Kiltmaker Robert McBain of the Keith Kilt School. McBain sent an invitation to her to attend the kilt school, in the mill town of Keith, Scotland, the only school for kiltmaking in the world. The master kiltmaker was the former kiltmaker for the Scottish Regiment the Gordon Highlanders, and the only certified teacher in the world qualified to train for the Scottish Vocation Educational Council (SCOTVEC) award. She has become the first American to attend the school and the first fully certified kiltmaker in North America attaining the Scottish Qualifications Authority Award in Traditional handcraft and Kilt Making Skills. Returning to Scotland in May of 1999 she studied the unique crafting of the military box pleated kilt of the Scottish regiments and achieved an award in Traditional Handcraft Kilt Manufacturing. This professional development award paves the way towards becoming a Master Kiltmaker, which was almost a dying breed now in Scotland.


I just don't think the efforts to minimize these credentials are valid.

Ron

[bubba]

Hmmm - interesting thought!! What shall we call the Bubba certification?!?

Barb

How bout the Bubba Certification for Whoop-*** Kiltmaking?

[Barb T]

Hi Riverkilt

Somehow or another, I'm not making it clear that I'm not trying to minimize anyone with credentials. Far from it!! It think it's wonderful and commendable that people have these credentials. I just think it's unfair to suggest that those who are not credentialed should, in this case, be criticized or downgraded as kiltmakers.

I went to the Scottish Qualfications Authority web site many months ago, and after much wading through, I concluded the following (and I just went back to the site to make sure that my memory was accurate):

-The SQA does not provide an independent examining board. They operate through places called centres, which are dominantly schools of one type or another, or through business (for SVC, the Scottish Vocational Qualifications). SQA approves the right to offer qualifications at these approved centres/businesses. SQA does not certify directly by an independent board as far as I can tell from anything on their web site.

-As I read it, anyone can propose national standards in anything that can be taught, or in any job that can be defined, and, if SQA approves, then standards are established by SQA, and SQA selects the centres/businesses that can certify by those standards. So, given the fact that the Keith School was the only place that one could become certified until recently, I concluded (I think correctly) that they proposed national standards in kiltmaking that SQA accepted, and they became the first, and at that time, the only place that could give out SQA certification in kiltmaking. It's clear from Riverkilt's post that Hector Russell has applied for and received SQA centre designation, so apparently the Keith School is no longer the only place that can give SQA certification.

The SQA website is huge and hard to navigate. Their search engine doesn't work very well, and it's crashed my web browsers repeatedly. I've yet to find the text of the SQA qualifications for kiltmaking. I can't get anything by typing "kiltmaking" into their search engine. If you type "Traditional Handcraft Kiltmaking Award" into the search engine, you get nothing except the message "if you haven't found the information you wanted, then please call....". And the SVC section under fashion/textiles and under creative crafts (which is the closest of anything in the SVC list to kiltmaking) says that web information is forthcoming but not currently available. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place on their web site, but I've had no luck so far in finding the word kiltmaking. I'm sure it's there, but damned if I can find it. I've tried downloading pdfs and have had crashes there, too. I gave up trying to find specific info on kiltmaking the last time, and I'm having no better luck this time. If anyone manages to download the qualifications, please share them with us!! I'll keep trying with different web browsers.

And again, if I'm wrong about any of this, please let me know!

And I'm not angry about any of this, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's accomplishments or put them down. I just think that the playing field for certification isn't particularly level at the moment, and few kiltmakers have the opportunity to become certified even if they want to. That's unlike many certification processes that are more ecumenical in terms of access. So, to my mind, it isn't fair to judge a kiltmaker by the fact that he/she is not certified.

Barb

[Riverkilt]

For sure,

But the only criticism or downgrading I've read has been against the certification, by those without it.

Don't recall any kiltmaker with certification implying those without were less than.

Just those without saying the certification is meaningless, contrived, etc.

Ron

[Barb T]

Actually, I was reacting to viewpoints posted earlier in this thread:

Why is it more satisfying to have a kilt made from a "certified Scottish kilt maker" than any other tailor?

Personally, I like knowing that my kilt was made by someone who was trained and certified in Scotland, since the kilt has its origins there. But that won't stop me from ordering a kilt from someone who has a good reputation for making kilts and is not certified in Scotland either.

While the second one is a pretty balanced statement, both indicate a view that places less value (downgrades) kilts made by someone who is not certified. These are not views by kiltmakers but by fellow X-Markers. To me, these statements need to be balanced on X-Marks by knowledge of the current state of certification (recent and very limited access) so that people can make a decision about whether _lack_ of certification really means what it implies - that kiltmakers who aren't certified make lower-value kilts and ought to be certified in order to prove that they can make high-value kilts. I would argue against the latter because of the current state of certification. I felt it was important to clarify how recently and by whom the idea of certification was developed and that the process for certification is currently so limited in accessibliity that most kiltmakers can't contemplate it, even it they would like to be certified.

Notice that I _haven't_ said in any of my posts that we shouldn't value kilts made by certified kiltmakers, just that we shouldn't _undervalue_ kilts made by those who aren't certified. By all means value the kilts made by those fortunate enough to be able to afford the time and the money to go to the Keith School or by those who are employed by Hector Russell. But it hardly seems fair to kiltmakers for consumers to downvalue kilts made by those who cannot meet those very narrow requirements.

Barb

[Raphael]

How about a sew off?

[macwilkin]

Actually, I was reacting to viewpoints posted earlier in this thread:


While the second one is a pretty balanced statement, both indicate a view that places less value (downgrades) kilts made by someone who is not certified. These are not views by kiltmakers but by fellow X-Markers. To me, these statements need to be balanced on X-Marks by knowledge of the current state of certification (recent and very limited access) so that people can make a decision about whether _lack_ of certification really means what it implies - that kiltmakers who aren't certified make lower-value kilts and ought to be certified in order to prove that they can make high-value kilts. I would argue against the latter because of the current state of certification. I felt it was important to clarify how recently and by whom the idea of certification was developed and that the process for certification is currently so limited in accessibliity that most kiltmakers can't contemplate it, even it they would like to be certified.

Notice that I _haven't_ said in any of my posts that we shouldn't value kilts made by certified kiltmakers, just that we shouldn't _undervalue_ kilts made by those who aren't certified. By all means value the kilts made by those fortunate enough to be able to afford the time and the money to go to the Keith School or by those who are employed by Hector Russell. But it hardly seems fair to kiltmakers for consumers to downvalue kilts made by those who cannot meet those very narrow requirements.

Barb

Barb,

That was my quote, and it was never my intention to offend you at anytime -- on the contrary. I'm glad you clarified the certifciation process, but I wish you would have addressed to me in a PM, or to me directly, rather than a general statement. I would have gladly removed the offending post, or edited it to reflect this new information that you have brought up instead of causing this "donnybrook", which I now feel responsible for somehow. I simply used that example as the "peace of mind" I have in my hand-sewn traditional made by someone at Hector Russell's Canadian branch. I was impressed with the product and customer service, and I simply answered the original question. I will glady go back and remove the offending post if you wish. I would never "downgrade" your work, and hopefully I will see it "in person" someday.

Again, it was never my intention at all to imply that somehow someone who wasn't certified was making "inferior" products; just that somehow a trade certification made me feel good about the quality -- I never said that it automatically made kilts without this certification "bad ones".

Regards,

Todd

Again, no offence meant or intended. My sincere apologies for offending you.