What makes a Scot?

**Gryphon noir** · 7th January 08, 06:15 AM

The genetic part is kind of interesting--and seems to support the notion that we are all only six degrees of separation away from knowing or being related to everyone currently alive on the planet.

I am told by relatives that not only are there cousins of practically every colour, but many look like family architypes [of which I am one]. I know I have cousins in Brazil who look much like me except for having very dark skin, American cousins who are part Hispanic, cousins who are part Cree, some who are part Chinese [Hong Kong] and some who never left Scotland. The few photos I have seen are quite remarkable--I would recognise some of them were I to meet them at an airport [communication in English might be a problem!]. With any luck, I shall get to meet some of these people someday. Regardless, many of these distant cousins are aware of their heritage, and some of them have surnames to remind them.

**Bugbear** · 7th January 08, 07:22 AM

I don't know for sure, but the genetic differences are probably very very small or few between any two people. If you geneticly compare humans to ... say apes, our differences are probably laughable. Like I said before, I have a bunch of half relatives running around that I don't know... or do I?

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 7th January 08, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by bjproc

how can anybody born & brought up in, say, the USA be longing to be back in the homeland when they've never been there.

In exactly the same way millions of people around the world who have never been to the USA want to move there.

Or Jews want to return to Israel.

Race is a far different thing than nationality. And nationality has nothing to do race.

**Galician** · 7th January 08, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by bjproc

my family never really told of stories of old, so thats maybe where it's leading in different directions peace & love Bj

BJ,

I'm wondering if they did, maybe just at wakes and weddings. That's how a lot of these stories get passed along. This is especially true in this time of large distances between family members.

**auld argonian** · 7th January 08, 09:54 AM

I'm probably going to be accused of cynicism for looking at it this way but this is the way that I look at it.

In my opinion, there are two things that people really want. The first is a sense that there is some order or purpose to life and the second is the feeling that one belongs to some kind of group. The belonging to a group business has a couple of benefits; one does not feel isolated and one feels that this group supports that first need, that the group is helping to bring some order or purpose to life. The obvious examples of groups that are in existence to support the idea of order and purpose are religions, political parties, citizenship (nation, region, city, etc.)...extend this into such things as company affiliation, family, being the alumni of an educational institution...you can really subdivide these affiliations.

So if you're born in Scotland, you're a Scot by definiton...love it or hate it...you were brought into this world in that specific place and culture and your being raised and educated in that place and culture forms part of your identity. You can totally embrace the culture and its values, totally reject it or be somewhere in between.

Say that you were born in Scotland but you're family moved to Canada when you were two...a slightly different version of being brought up in a culture; now it's a sort of a transplanted culture...things being dynamic, your family will undoubtedly retain many of its traditions and perspectives but they're going to be modified by the new environment that you're living in. Maybe you'll decide that you want to maintain a very solid "ethnic identity' and maybe you'll decide to go for total assimilation into the local culture...no right or wrong here.

So now you're a citizen of the United States whose ancestor(s) came over from Scotland back in the 1700's...traditions may or not have been preserved, perspectives may have been maintained but there's going to have to be some effects wrought upon them by the interaction with the local culture. It's inevitable. Maybe you're one of the people who have gotten constant reinforcement of your Proud Scottish Heritage from family members or maybe, like me, it's something that hasn't been kept in the forefront of your upbringing but has been considered just another aspect of your family's past...again; no right or wrong here.

I don't buy this business of it "being in the blood" that's been tossed around here. Seriously, I'm reminded of the George Lucas Star Wars bit about The Force actually being generated by some kind of sentient beings that live in a sub-atomic world in your mitochondrial DNA. Call me when you can point to the Scottish chromosome, would you? Sorry, gang, when you start that stuff you're talking Ancestral Memory and we're rapidly heading for Shirley MacLaine territory...."...in a previous life, I was Bonnie Prince Sidney, Bonnie Prince Charlie's lesser known younger brother...". Let's leave the Romantic Fantasy behind...I went to college with WAY too many people who would have a couple of drinks (or tokes) and start that "I was born out of my time" stuff.

We seem, in this thread, to be more concerned about the "Scottishness" of members of the Scottish Diaspora and those who feel an affinity with Scottishness but who might not have direct family connections to Scotland than we are that of the Native Born Scots. We also seem to be making some generality that there is a sort of a single, essential way to be "A Scot".

There are, certainly, historic examples of characteristics demonstrated by Scots that we find admirable and with which we identify. Certainly, there are such characteristics in the histories of many cultures that folks have the same feelings about but let's deal with this set of specifics. Is identifying with these characteristics part of that need to belong to a group and adopt a set of principles that help one feel that there is order and a purpose in life? Do we feel that these characteristics are desirable and seize upon our connection with the Scots in our ancestry as a way of signifying our approval of them? Look at it...when you do this, you can have a mode of dress (kilt stuff) and a whole set of rituals to demonstrate that you identify with Scottishness but it's Scottishness as an abstract concept, as a set of principles as distinct from being "one who was born in Scotland". And, not to parse this way too finely, the Native Born Scot can certainly either embrace or reject those same principles that we of the Diaspora consider "Scottishness" and certainly has the right to define Scottishness in light of his own experience because, let's face it, they live in Scotland in the here and now and the Diaspora's concepts are largely based on historical events and traditions.

....holy schnikes...I feel like I ought to have footnotes for this whole rant...

Anyway, I'm enjoying the discussion and it has, obviously, provoked a lot of thought.

Best

AA

ps: ...and for the inevitable members of the forum who will say, "What's he talking about? I don't need to belong to any group! I live by my own rules!" I'd like to announce that the next meeting of the Rugged Individualists' Club will be held at 7 PM Thursday at the Rugged Individualists' Clubhouse.

**bjproc** · 7th January 08, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

In exactly the same way millions of people around the world who have never been to the USA want to move there.

do they, were their ancestors from there?

maybe they want better opportunities for them and their families.

**graham_s** · 7th January 08, 11:22 AM

Meh, go far enough back we're all Africans anyway.

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 7th January 08, 01:09 PM

BJ--

As I said, nationality and race are two different things. No matter what your race, when you move to the United States you become an American. It doesn't matter what the motivation was for the move, your ethnicity doesn't change, just your nationality.

Example #1: Mr. Harrar (an Ethiopian) moves to NYC, gets a license to drive a taxi, and takes out U.S. citizenship. Nationality: USA

Example #2: Mr. Harrar (still an Ethiopian and first cousin to the fella in NYC) moves to Glasgow, can't get a taxi license so becomes an accountant, and applies for citizenship, which is duly granted. Nationality? BRITISH. Not Scottish. Not Scots, but British. He becomes a British Subject (just as his disgruntled, SNP-voting neighbour is).

Time for a dose of historical reality here. The Union of Crowns (1603-- which saw James VI pack his golf clubs and gallop off to Merry Olde England never to return) and the Union of Parliaments (1707) put an end to the "nation of Scotland". Okay, it was technically "The Kingdom of Scotland" or some such, but the point is that once the executive and legislative branches left, Scotland was reduced in status to something like an "uber" county. There was a lot of "local" govenment -- and that's been seriously eroded over the years-- but despite (or perhaps, because of) the fuzzy-headed rantings of Mr. Harrar's SNP neighbour in Glasgow, all the "big" decisions were taken by the executive and legislatve bods down in London.

Granted that Scotland has recently been hiked up the govenmental ranks from the status of "Uber County" to something the equivalent of the state of Idaho, now that it has its own multi-district assembly, it still isn't really an independent nation. Even though SNP stalwart Ramsey Luigi Casatti (Mr. Harrar's Glasgow neighbour, who really is -or isn't- Scottish according to your definition) may fantasize about turning Scotland into some sort of throw-back 19th century worker's paradise, complete with a permanent seat on the United Nation's Security Council, the hard fact remains that Scotland hasn't been a "nation" for 201 years, and that it was, at best, only a quasi-nation for 104 years before that.

If a Scottish nation exists at all, it exists in the hearts and minds of the descendants of those people who witnessed the departure of their king and parliament all those centuries ago. That means that someone in Toronto, Canada or Brisbane, Australia or Wellington, New Zealand or Harare, Zimbabwe has as much claim to be a Scot, as someone sitting in a pub in Glasgow, in Great Britain.

**Dirka Skene** · 7th January 08, 01:36 PM

I'm sort of a Heinze 57. I've got Irish, Scottish, Italian and German on my father's side and pure Black Foot on my mother's. When I was born, my first breath was a 2.7 on the breathalizer...lol. You're loyal to where your roots run deepest. My father's deepest roots were in Europe, that's where my loyalties lie.