what am I seeing here?

**Barb T** · 6th May 08, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Pleater

For most cloths there is a difference in the warp and the weft, with the warp being the stronger, so for most patterns for 'normal' clothing the pieces are cut out along the long axis of the cloth. When worn the garments have the strong threads vertically on the body.

Actually, I don't think this is true. Clothing is laid out parallel to the warp (the "straight grain") of the fabric not because the threads are stronger but because the warp direction is less stretchy than the weft direction. When on the loom, the warp is under tension, and each thread is quite straight. The weft threads are not under tension and, at the fine scale, go up and down over the warp threads. This means that, if you pull the fabric parallel to the weft, it has some "give" as you stretch out the weft threads that have a slightly up and down path over the warp threads. Because you don't want your pants to give lengthwise, you lay out the pattern pieces in the warp direction. It's not strength - it's a matter of "give".

As a weaver, you can easily lay out a twill as a right twill or a left twill. Just depends on how you thread the heddles. And, if I'm remembering right, the same threading will give the opposite twill on a rising shed loom as on a sinking shed loom. And you can choose to weave with the top side of the fabric up or down (although many hand weavers weave with the top side up so that any mistakes are immediately obvious). I have no idea how these factors combine in the new rapier looms at Lochcarron. But I'm willing to bet that the changeover made a difference in one of these factors (top side, rising or sinking shed, or threading). It's entirely possible that all of the factors were constrained and they had no choice but to produce a tartan with a different good side than is traditional, although I find that hard to believe.

**ThreadBbdr** · 6th May 08, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Barb T.

*snip*

As a weaver, you can easily lay out a twill as a right twill or a left twill. Just depends on how you thread the heddles. And, if I'm remembering right, the same threading will give the opposite twill on a rising shed loom as on a sinking shed loom. And you can choose to weave with the top side of the fabric up or down (although many hand weavers weave with the top side up so that any mistakes are immediately obvious). *snip*

For a straight twill (like our tartans), you set up the heddles as 1,2,3.4. How you lift them will determine if the "line" runs right or left. You lift two treadles at a time. If you do 1/3, then 2/4 you get plain weave. 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, 4/1 should create a twill that moves from the weaver's lower left to upper right on a rising shed loom. You can do zigzags and birdseyes, too.

Anybody want a picture essay on this? I'd be glad to warp up a gamp (sample) and do a little tutorial.

**Ancienne Alliance** · 6th May 08, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by The Wizard of BC

BTW, the photos were taken at Fraser & Kirkbright when I was there talking to Gordon about weaving the X Marks Tartan.]

nice photos
thank you

**kiltiejimbob** · 19th June 08, 07:45 AM

Wow!

The more I know the more I think I find fault with my new tank.

Mine is indeed made on a rapier loom. The line is hidden in the tartan but is still very visible to me. I would say that the kilt maker did not consider that one side of the cloth was more or less smooth along the edge than the other. When I look closely it seems to me that the under side is the smoother. Wow. Now I don't know what to think about this kilt and the man who made it. Beginning to feel just a tad taken advantage of.
Would one necessarily expect all stitching on a "handmade" kilt to be hand sewn? All edges and the small hemmed area? Or are we really talking about the pleats and hidden body of the kilt?

The more you know....!

KJB

**ChattanCat** · 19th June 08, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by kiltiejimbob

Wow!

The more I know the more I think I find fault with my new tank.

Mine is indeed made on a rapier loom. The line is hidden in the tartan but is still very visible to me. I would say that the kilt maker did not consider that one side of the cloth was more or less smooth along the edge than the other. When I look closely it seems to me that the under side is the smoother. Wow. Now I don't know what to think about this kilt and the man who made it. Beginning to feel just a tad taken advantage of.
Would one necessarily expect all stitching on a "handmade" kilt to be hand sewn? All edges and the small hemmed area? Or are we really talking about the pleats and hidden body of the kilt?

The more you know....!

KJB

I have been making a few kilts. For the most part the selvage is not noticable to anyone other than the wearer and only from close inspection. I have had to deliberatly use the inside on the outside because there was a flaw in the material that would have ended up on the apron. I have also seen a selvege that seemed to wonder down the lenght, first you think this is the right side, then you think the other side. Which do you choose?

Traditional, hand made kilts, are just that, hand made. The only seam that can be made by a machine is on the waist band because it is hidden when you roll the waistband over it.

I make all my kilt completely without the aid of a machine, although the thread I use is made on a machine, and so is the tartan... Now if I were to weave the tartan by hand... no, the thread is machine made... Now if I were to raise the sheep, shear them, cart the wool, spin the wool, weave the tartan, hand sew the kilt, THEN you have a hand made kilt. Of course, it will be off white... dang, forgot the collecting of the plants to make the dye, dyeing of the wool, etc...

Cheers,

**Hamish** · 19th June 08, 04:33 PM

Please allow me to add my thanks to Steve, Matt and Barb for explaining these 'mysteries' of the weaving process with such clarity. I believe I was pretty much aware of most of what has been written here, but I am indeed thankful to all three for passing on their knowledge - and for confirming a number of points to me. Thanks to all of you.

Take care,
Ham.

**Atlanta Kiltie** · 19th June 08, 06:50 PM

I found that fascinating thanks for sharing the information.

**Kilted in Maine** · 20th June 08, 06:33 AM

Thanks for the clarification:

I had noticed both the "Turned Selvedge" and "tucked-in hem" on a recent purchase and had assumed they were either mistakes or defects.

I soon realized they were only visible on very very close inspection and paid them no mind.

Now I am glad to hear that the former is only part of the now standard weaving process and the later, as Barb says, "means that your kiltmaker knows what he/she is doing!"

Now, if the wife happens to notice and second guess this purchase, I can explain these to her.

**DWFII** · 20th June 08, 06:55 AM

I originally started this thread because, with no prior experience with kilts, I rented one for a wedding. I was astonished to see the selvage threads and thought that it was poor cloth or a botched attempt to hem the kilt. An attempt to get clarification from the renting business was met with equal perplexity.

At this point in time, I am equally astonished at how many far less ignorant folks than myself are also unfamiliar with this aspect of kilts. Some, like myself, even thinking there is something wrong with the material or the construction.

I am glad that this discussion has precipitated such generous and well informed advice and information. It is helpful to both the end user as well as those who sell or rent kilts and who might reasonably be expected to recognize not only the problem but the equally reasonable concern of the customer.

I wish this discussion had been available when I was first confronted with the issue. Better late than never, however.