Irish Kilts

[Smayniac]

In reality, I could give a rat's behind where the kilt originated. I just like wearing it, and I just happen to be Irish. But, if I were of Japanese descent, I'd still wear a kilt. And, isn't that the purpose of this site, to foster the wearin' of the kilt?

This encapsulates my view, with the addition that, while there seems to be Irish blood in my background, I had never particularly identified myself as Irish. I wasn't even aware of said lineage until I was well into my third decade. I cite it now only to avoid unpleasant discussions with those who would argue my "right" to wear a kilt at all. I started wearing a kilt because I WANTED to. I started going to highland games because I had a friend who competed and I wanted to check it out; it was happy coincidence that I had a kilt to wear when I went.

Bob

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

You're right about one thing - I don't live in Virginia, I live in Maryland. Or isn't that what you meant when you said "who don't live here"?

No, that's not what I meant, so let me make it perfectly clear. You don't live in Ireland. I do. True, I am presently working in Virginia, but when I finish, I'll go back to where I live in Ireland.

Unlike many a "Passport Paddy"-- you know, the guy with an Irish granny, he's been to Ireland for two weeks, and knows all the rebel songs-- I've lived in Ireland since 1985 and was, for a time, employed in one of the Departments of the Minister for the Arts, Heritage, the Gaeltacht, and the Islands. Even though I am currently working in Virginia, I still retain a home in County Wexford. So when, in an Irish context, I refer to those "who don't live here", I'm referring to those who (A) do not live in Ireland, and (B ) who have never spent more than a brief holiday in Ireland. None the less, both A and B seem to have more "opinions" about Irish politics, religion, and the price of a pint, than do the Irish themselves.

You regularly make valid, and sometimes insightful contributions to the various threads on XMTS; but when anyone injects Irish politics into the discussion-- and this thread is intended to be about Irish Kilts, not the supposed politics of someone who has written about a country house in Co. Offaly-- those comments not only seem to contravene the XMTS policy of "no political discussions", but can sometimes come off as either grossly misinformed, or intentionally offensive, especially to those of us who are Irish, irrespective of where our careers may have taken us for the moment.

If further clarification is required I suggest that it be done by PM, rather than hijack this thread.

[denmcdough]

Qiestion for MacMillan of Rathdown: you lived in Ireland since 1985, but where did you live before that? Just curious. Cheers!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Qiestion for MacMillan of Rathdown: you lived in Ireland since 1985, but where did you live before that? Just curious. Cheers!

Seems like your PM was mistakenly posted to the open forum. :-)

[M. A. C. Newsome]

In reality, I could give a rat's behind where the kilt originated. I just like wearing it, and I just happen to be Irish. But, if I were of Japanese descent, I'd still wear a kilt. And, isn't that the purpose of this site, to foster the wearin' of the kilt? If the kilt truly came from Scotland, and it probably did, as my son would say, "Cool beans!" Celts, other than Scots, and other nationalities who decide to wear a kilt, well, that has to be the best form of flattery to the Scots.

In truth, most Scots (and those of Scots descent) are more than happy if non-Scots want to wear the kilt. It doesn't matter if you are Irish, English, French, Japanese, African, or anything else. However, those non-Scots who wish to wear the kilt should, respectfully, acknowledge that they are wearing Scottish dress when they do so. As you said, it is a form of flattery to the Scots to say that their national dress is so admired that others wish to adopt it.

What many people, myself included, are wary of are those attempts by many to create a false pedigree for the kilt in order to justify its modern use by non-Scottish groups. So depending on what web site you are looking at and who is selling the kilt, the garment was either invented in ancient Ireland, or Norway, or Austria, or Wales, etc.

The problem with false history is, well... it's false! And why subscribe to a falsehood in order to justify wearing a garment that you don't really need any justification to wear.

This has happened so often that for many of us our guard is up for any who may casually make the claim that the kilt originated somewhere other than the Highlands of Scotland. As I said before, we actually have quite a bit of documentation on how the kilt developed over the centuries into the modern garment that we know today. Not an overwhelming amount, no; but enough for us to be pretty sure of the broad picture, even though some of the smaller details may be a bit fuzzy.

Usually when people make the claim that the kilt actually has an older pedigree from another country, it is not because they have discovered any new evidence, but rather because they have failed to look at (or take seriously) the evidence that we already have.

[OC Richard]

I always thought the Irish adopted it because, as they were looking for a national costume--one that would set them apart from their neighbors to the east--they wanted something definitively Celtic. Their cousins in Scotland had been wearing kilts for centuries. Because it was such a unique and instantly recognizable garment, the Irish adopted it but made them in solid colors to differentiate themselves from the Scots.

Sure, one could argue that they should've decided Aran jumpers and flat caps were going to represent the Irish costume, but a) those weren't being worn all across Ireland, and b) it wasn't ancient or unique enough to provoke a Romantic notion of being different and independent.

Yes that seems to sum up nicely what happened. It's just sort of quirky that they jumped on the kilt to symbolise Celticity, rather than tartan. Tartan/plaid/varigated woven garments had been worn by their fellow-Celts for at least 2000 years but the kilt had evolved in a single branch of their fellow-Celts within the last 500 years or so.

But let's face it, what the Irish started has now been taken up by the Cornish and who knows who else. Celts equals kilts seems to be here to stay.

Maybe I should mention that I'm 1/4 Irish and I've played uilleann pipes and Irish traditional music in that scene for 30+ years so I've always had one foot in the Irish music scene and one foot in the Scottish music scene.

So I'm not "anti-Irish" or "anti-Irish kilts" or any such thing. I just love history and I like knowing as much as I can about the history and origin of things and I accept the Irish kilt for what it is and nothing more: the product of the Irish Revival.

As a player of the uilleann pipes, Ireland's true bagpipe, it does strike my eye as odd to see the New York St Patrick's Day Parade and see band after band, hundreds of pipers, playing the Scottish Highland pipes, wearing the Highland kilt, wearing feather bonnets and horsehair sporrans and all the rest, the bands having names like "Irish pipers" and "Emerald Society" etc etc. Ireland's true history and culture has gone amiss somehow.

[macwilkin]

So I'm not "anti-Irish" or "anti-Irish kilts" or any such thing. I just love history and I like knowing as much as I can about the history and origin of things and I accept the Irish kilt for what it is and nothing more: the product of the Irish Revival.

hear, hear!

T.

[Arlen]

You know, I always cringe a little when an 'Irish Kilt' thread comes up.
As far as I am concerned I am Scottish through and through. I was born in Scotland and so were all my ancestors on my father's side that we can trace. And we can trace a long way back.
That said, I have Irish and Russian Jewish on my mother's side.

I have no problem with the history of Kilts in Irish regiments and Celtic revival etc. I don't even have a problem with the more modern Irish tartans and the people who want to wear them. So long as they wear them knowing to correct history of the Kilt.

Since I moved to America, though, I have been told more times that I can count that I must be Irish because Kilts are Irish. They joy in telling me the REAL history of the Kilt and how very Irish they personally are and on and on. And it makes me sad to see how little of Real Irish culture survives in the general public here. Because Irish culture is wonderful and rich and has so much of it's own to speak for it. And it's so utterly eclipsed by so many 'Plastic Paddies.'

It's a real shame.

[PGH]

Qiestion for MacMillan of Rathdown: you lived in Ireland since 1985, but where did you live before that? Just curious. Cheers!

He's still not Irish enough for you?

[PGH]

Maybe I should mention that I'm 1/4 Irish and I've played uilleann pipes and Irish traditional music in that scene for 30+ years so I've always had one foot in the Irish music scene and one foot in the Scottish music scene.

So I'm not "anti-Irish" or "anti-Irish kilts" or any such thing. I just love history and I like knowing as much as I can about the history and origin of things and I accept the Irish kilt for what it is and nothing more: the product of the Irish Revival.

As a player of the uilleann pipes, Ireland's true bagpipe, it does strike my eye as odd to see the New York St Patrick's Day Parade and see band after band, hundreds of pipers, playing the Scottish Highland pipes, wearing the Highland kilt, wearing feather bonnets and horsehair sporrans and all the rest, the bands having names like "Irish pipers" and "Emerald Society" etc etc. Ireland's true history and culture has gone amiss somehow.

Ironically enough, the union pipe was renamed the uilleann pipe by a charlatan named Gratton Flood circa 1910. It's history is as much English and Scottish as Irish.