Was Tartan ever actually banned?

[Slag101]

Bro:. Aaron: I'll ignore your confrontational attitude and just say again that if someone can show-me a reliable source that documents a kirkin service from 18th century Scotland, I'll be the first to shout it from the rooftops. While it certainly is possible, I'm not convinced until we have the documentation. I'm always open to new sources and ways of looking at history when those sources are discovered.

But in the spirit of compromise, I will mention the discussion here recently about dirks & "The Holy Iron", which is documented -- if there was a blessing of a tartan, it would most likely take that form, instead of a formal liturgy. We know that Carmichael documents a Highland prayer for the weaver's cloth, for example. How's that for admitting it? :mrgreen:

And thanks for the leccture on John Ford. I teach Western/Frontier history, and I discuss Ford's symbolism in his Westerns. That was my attempt a humor, which obviously failed. I can't say I've never taught anyone at gunpoint, except for living history talks, but I'm not going to simply give people what they want to hear -- I'm not in politics.

And we use Turabian/Chicago. I'll accept your work in MLA, though, as Turbian tends to intimidate non-history types. (and that was meant in jest, btw)

I am glad we can debate these topics openly. I was not aware of your occupation specializing in Western History. I also agree that John Ford was brilliant at putting symbolism and allegory to film. I also see that we can reach the agreement that lack of proof is simply that, lack of. I did not once say that I agree that it happened prior to 1941, just that the possibility exists. Then again, the possibility exists for UFOs to land and come to said Kirkin O the Tartan, but it is highly unlikely. I am sorry if my sarcasm was offensive to you, as tone does not translate well to text, but sarcasm is considered friendly banter here in North Jersey, in fact it is one of our primary languages, along with spanish, polish, russian, etc. Also, I hope you can accept my future work in MLA with a slant toward APA. I work in healthcare, writing my own thoughts is difficult, it is much easier to site the work of others. Try reading any medical research, half of every sentence is a citation of someone else's work, who in turn cited someone else.

[macwilkin]

I am glad we can debate these topics openly. I was not aware of your occupation specializing in Western History. I also agree that John Ford was brilliant at putting symbolism and allegory to film. I also see that we can reach the agreement that lack of proof is simply that, lack of. I did not once say that I agree that it happened prior to 1941, just that the possibility exists. Then again, the possibility exists for UFOs to land and come to said Kirkin O the Tartan, but it is highly unlikely. I am sorry if my sarcasm was offensive to you, as tone does not translate well to text, but sarcasm is considered friendly banter here in North Jersey, in fact it is one of our primary languages, along with spanish, polish, russian, etc. Also, I hope you can accept my future work in MLA with a slant toward APA. I work in healthcare, writing my own thoughts is difficult, it is much easier to site the work of others. Try reading any medical research, half of every sentence is a citation of someone else's work, who in turn cited someone else.

Apologies; I am the son of an Arizona father & Iowa mother. Sarcasm isn't as well known to those of us from west of the Mississippi River.

I do not require my students to use Chicago in my 100 and 200 level classes, as the majority of them will not be going on to be history majors, and MLA is much more prevalent in 100-level English classes. Your description of your citations sounds a lot like ours in history.

I use a number of Ford films in my class, including The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance and The Searchers. I also use Peckenpah's Junior Bonner as an allegory for the modern West, and I'm quite fond of The Shootist as well.

T.

[Kilted-Marine]

Untestable Hypothesis and Falsifiability - The Scientific Method has some five key steps to it...
1. Observation/Question
2. Hypothesis
3. Prediction
4. Experiment
5. Conclusion

One of the toughest parts of the Scientific Method is simply determining whether it's possible to design an experiment to test your hypothesis. If it IS possible to test it, and there are clear conditions for what counts as refuting your hypothesis, the hypothesis is called falsifiable, and this is a good thing in science. "Falsifiable" means the same thing as "testable," it doesn't mean "proven false." Yeah, it's confusing. So some examples may help.

Hypothesis: There are NO black swans.
Test: Look for a black swan.
Falsifiable? Yes
Potential Falsification: Finding a black swan.
Truth Status: False (there are black swans).

Hypothesis: There are pink elephants.
Test: Look for a pink elephant.
Falsifiable? No
Potential Falsification: None. If you looked around the whole world, maybe it was hiding in Japan while you were in New Zealand. If you saw the whole world simultaneously, maybe it's on Mars. Or another solar system. It's impossible to actually carry out the test.

Hypothesis: The First Kirkin of the tartan was done in the USA.
Test: Look for evidence that there was never one done before
Falsifiable? No
Potential Falsification: None. If you look at every possible source there is still a chance it happened but was not recorded

Truth Status: So far it appears false, but we're not sure. The statment "there is no such thing as a pink elephant" is a good example of something that a non-scientist would call a fact but scientists would say is unproven.

[xman]

Yes, and until there is a possibility of obtaining sufficient evidence we adopt the position that, "there are no pink elephants".

[Jock Scot]

I have been around in Scotland,one way or another, for some 70 years and it was not until I joined this website some three years ago that I had ever heard of "Kirkin the Tartan". Now, I do not profess to be an expert on many things, least of all church festivals and events, but I rather think that if the event in question had any historical relevance then I may have known about it some long time ago. It most certainly is not an event celebrated in this part of the Highlands anyway and as far as I am aware, it never has been.

As to the enforcing the "tartan ban" I have no evidence that it was actually was enforced rigorously. Did the British army need that sort of lame excuse for their excesses at that time?I think not. As far I am aware the ban only concerned tartan coats, not tartan kilts. Perhaps I am wrong? But I don't think so.