Black Tie Event - Shoe Advice Needed

[JerseyLawyer]

OK, I'm wrong. Shoes designed for 18th century ballroom dance, and having changed little over the years, have nothing to do with tradition.

I think the point is that in the case of formal footwear, form follows function. We don't just wear a particular type of dress shoe because we always have, but because for ballroom dances (and I don't just mean 'ballroom dancing' - I'm including such things as Scottish set dances, since we are talking about kilts as well here) a light, thin-soled shoe gives optimum performance.

[CMcG]

I think the point is that in the case of formal footwear, form follows function. We don't just wear a particular type of dress shoe because we always have, but because for ballroom dances (and I don't just mean 'ballroom dancing' - I'm including such things as Scottish set dances, since we are talking about kilts as well here) a light, thin-soled shoe gives optimum performance.

Ergo, for a formal event where there will not be dancing or for people who don't dance, then light, thin-soled shoes are not the only option?

[JerseyLawyer]

Ergo, for a formal event where there will not be dancing or for people who don't dance, then light, thin-soled shoes are not the only option?

No, you're making a straw man argument here. Most formal events do involve dancing, and therefore the acceptable shoe for all formal events is one suited to that task. Moreover, formal evening wear is about elegance, and heavy, chunky shoes are simply not elegant.

Then you get into the question of conformity. Like it or not, there is a "uniform" that goes with wearing black or white tie. While you can occasionally break the rules, it is best to know what they are first - if you're going to wear something that isn't a formal dress shoe, then you should know what everyone else is likely to be wearing, so that you don't transgress out of ignorance. And wearing your best thick-soled wingtips to a black-tie function isn't exactly the same as wearing cardinal red silk socks that match the lining of your custom smoking jacket, either.

I'm starting to get to a bit of a loss about what we're even discussing here. Are you saying that any old pair of shoes is fine with a tuxedo or with highland evening wear?

[CMcG]

No, you're making a straw man argument here. Most formal events do involve dancing, and therefore the acceptable shoe for all formal events is one suited to that task. Moreover, formal evening wear is about elegance, and heavy, chunky shoes are simply not elegant.

Then you get into the question of conformity. Like it or not, there is a "uniform" that goes with wearing black or white tie. While you can occasionally break the rules, it is best to know what they are first - if you're going to wear something that isn't a formal dress shoe, then you should know what everyone else is likely to be wearing, so that you don't transgress out of ignorance. And wearing your best thick-soled wingtips to a black-tie function isn't exactly the same as wearing cardinal red silk socks that match the lining of your custom smoking jacket, either.

I'm starting to get to a bit of a loss about what we're even discussing here. Are you saying that any old pair of shoes is fine with a tuxedo or with highland evening wear?

I was trying for more of a reduction to the absurd, rather than a straw man...

My point is, as you say, that there are standards of conformity for traditional formal wear. While the origins of the formal shoe have to do with a certain ideal of elegance and the type of dancing that embodies it, using that as a justification for all formal shoes is a non sequitur. I'm arguing with the rationalization offered for the correct choice of traditional formal shoes, not for the choice itself.

Maybe I just like to argue too much though. Sorry everyone

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Does one detect the whiff of a Troll in the room? Hmm.

Hoskins, open a window.

[CMcG]

[wildrover]

No troll...somebody must've stepped on a duck.

Maybe I just like to argue too much though. Sorry everyone

It's cool, I like arguing . Risking an accusation that we all need our heads checked, I will press on, in this thread of men talking about shoes ...

suede soles are preferred because they allow the foot to glide or slide across the floor.

Interesting...haven't come across these before. Are these more common in any particular style of dance? Either that, or I've seen them in action but wasn't aware of the material. The pairs I've seen in the past had a similar leather to what's used on dress shoes.

A better explanation of why formal shoes are a certain way has more to do with tradition and appearance than dancing; saying shoes should be smooth and elegant for dancing because people should be dancing smoothly and elegantly is a rather circular argument. Besides, not everyone dances.

I bolded the important bit...the shoes are smooth and elegant because the rest of the outfit is smooth and elegant. I think we're moving a little far from the original topic with all the dance talk, and if I said or implied that, I was certainly incorrect...breaking is smooth and elegant but almost everyone wears skate flats.

Docs and similarly styled shoes bridge the gap between skate shoes and dress shoes, but they're appropriate for neither, in function or appearance. Sure are great for walking around, though. I'm sporting a pair right now, same pair I wear with my kilt .

If it really was all about dancing, people would be wearing something tailor made to the style of music and dance, which in some cases might be something more athletic than formal. Sorry wildrover, but several of the styles you listed are anything but smooth and elegant. And if one has that much trouble moving around or avoiding their partners feet because of dress shoes with a bit more cushion and grip, then they probably need exercise and dance lessons.

You'll find two types of shoes for dancing...rubber or leather soled street flats or equivalent, and leather soled dance shoes. Functionally they are all the same, and the good ones allow just as much athleticism as a good trail running shoe. Appearance goes in accordance with the style of clothing worn, which is where we started, and big soles just happen to be further down the formal ladder.

On a tangent, I can only think of two styles of dance, both within hip hop, which are intentionally not smooth. All the rest, while they may incorporate a pause, pose, break, freeze, or bounce in the choreography, are smooth. Which style did you think wasn't smooth?

I don't buy the proposition that one can't dance properly in a chunkier shoe. I've done it and I've observed plenty of people doing the same.

I think we're talking about two different styles of dance. Do a few swipes in your street shoes, then do the same in your Docs, and tell me which is more comfortable. Try a pin drop next, if you haven't already thrown your clompers in the corner. That girl in the 6" platform shoes? She calls it dancing, I call it Jersey Shore (which takes nothing but makeup) until she's on brass (which requires athleticism, choreography, and practice). The swing weight is totally different, between big soles and everything else.

The leverage is completely different too, and the amount of force you can transfer to your partner increases tremendously with a sticky sole. A girl that really knows how to turn, with a stiff frame and good balance, can make use of it. Most mortals will just end up with sprained limbs and hurt feelings. I've danced with a couple people who can turn like that, but it's not common outside of a couple styles of social dance to have that much spring in a stiff frame, or to move quickly enough to take advantage of it. I suppose a good musical blend would be rockabilly, heavy on the drums and rhythm guitar, turn up the brass, and grow it with punk roots and a fifth of bourbon on the side . So yeah, you can do it...and it's fun...but it's certainly the exception. You got a place with music like that and girls that talented, call me! #$%!, maybe we should start a dancing discussion thread . Ok, I'll concede the point that it's possible to dance in a chunky shoe, but I'll not give up the detrimental leverage on the ankle & knee when a wide sole is in any position but flat on the floor, nor the point that turning is close to impossible on a sticky sole.

It does make perfect sense, however, that THCD has a well established look and that a lighter, more refined shoe is the correct choice for black tie formal attire.

Back on topic, now...THCD is at one end of the formal spectrum. Docs and similar chunky-soled shoes, and shoes with a wider lip on the sole, are at the other end.

...And you can have leather soles put on all of them .

[MacLowlife]

Thanks all and sundry for your insights and opinions- and more than I expected to learn about dance. I do love it when the Traditional Folk turn out to discuss things. I always learn something. There may be more to this thread yet, but I look forward to another informative topic. Anybody care to introduce a new thread? I can't wait.

But, since we are still on this one, I'm curious as to what dances we do in our kilts. Reels? Waltzes? I gather some may do more modern dancing. Me, I end up doing a lowlife version of swing dancing.



And the Whisky Tango Foxtrot

[Cygnus]

I think the fact that formal shoes are light and leather soled is because they were (and are) used for dancing has been overshadowed by the discussion of whether or not they're necessary for dancing. I'm not much of a dancer, so I can't comment on the necessity of such shoes, but I also think that the two sides of the discussion have very different dances in mind.

Whether or not they're necessary doesn't change the fact that anything else would not be traditional. It doesn't matter if you're dancing, standing in a corner, or bowling (actually, leather-soled shoes really are necessary for that last one ), if the event is formal, thin soles are what is generally worn.

I suppose it's a lot like the sgian dubh - it may have been used for far more practical things in the past, but it is now traditional to wear one even if it is purely decorative. You may not use your sgian for much, and you may not dance in your formal shoes, but both are important and traditional parts of Highland dress.

And the Whisky Tango Foxtrot

[wildrover]

But, since we are still on this one, I'm curious as to what dances we do in our kilts. Reels? Waltzes? I gather some may do more modern dancing. Me, I end up doing a lowlife version of swing dancing.

And the Whisky Tango Foxtrot

So far, swing and blues, and the latter incorporates a little tango, a little salsa, a little hip hop, I suppose a bit of ballroom, and occasionally the odd pole, chair, or wall. All depends on the company and the venue.

If one receives a lap dance while kilted, would that count?

Keep in mind the Whisky Tango Foxtrot is technically a reel.