The Kilt's use in Irish Nationalism

[Steve Ashton]

Thank you for your understanding Blackrose87,

Remember that it is not that you offended someone. This forum has been around for nine years now. In that time we have found that some topics always seem to go bad. Politics and Religion are just two.

The strength of this forum is that we keep our focus on the kilt. There are many other forums on the web where you can discuss all those other topics. Many of our members are also members of many forums. When they want to talk about the kilt they come here.

We know and understand that the kilt is a narrow topic of discussion. But it is our strength that we have kept true to the original dream of our founder and kept our focus on our chosen subject.

[Jock Scot]

Sorry for this thread becoming politic. I had read about the kilt use in Irish nationalism, and thought people here would be able to pont me to some more information regarding it.
With this topic, I suppose it is hard not to stray into politics. So I'm sorry if I went off-topic or offended anyone in anyway. This was not my intention.

I don't think you need to apologise for anything. It is a potential hot topic, for sure, which must have had the mods twitching from the start, but as far as I can see we have all stuck to historical facts and without being overly partisan-----yes points of view have been courteously, fairly and properly aired ----- or objectionable in any way. I think personally that this thread, so far, is a gold standard in how to discuss a tricky and interesting subject on a website.

[MacSpadger]

For some, that means wearing the kilt as a symbol of Celtic identity, by way of a general association between the Celtic peoples, and thereby expressing a feeling of admiration, solidarity, and/or affinity for the distinctive dress of the Highlanders.

Thank you for taking the time to explain these views, but I just can't get my head around it, sorry.

Maybe I am small minded, or a product of my upbringing. I don't know. I was born in the Grampian region and went to college in Inverness. (I also know that I was conceived in Kingussie, my mother told me that and added "and I had a heavy cold at the time". Sometimes mithers can clipe too much). We were taught Gaelic and Highland dancing at primary school, (what you might call Elementary School), and told the history of The Gaels, as it was understood at the time, (we were told the Gaels shared elements of culture witht the Ancient Greeks, so they might be Kelts?), but I don't get this "Celtic" or even "Pan-Celtic" thing at all, it's just alien to me, it really is.

It's like saying "I found out my great grandfather was Japanese so I am going to wear an Indian turban as a symbol of Eastern identity". In my head, I just can't get it to make sense at all. I think it's time I bowed out again before I get dizzy.

[clanciankent]

The old country has no problem adopting `new` traditions such as St Patricks Day parades and the drinking (on that day) which go with it.
An entirely North American diaspora tradition which was adopted by the `home` Irish in the late 1990s if not later.A `real` traditional St Patricks Day in Ireland was (when I grew up there) a day you abstained,went to mass and all pubs were closed.
Its a two way street-the stay at homes adopt the new traditions of the diaspora and soon believe that it was their tradition all along.The same applies to Scotland and everywhere else in the old world for that matter.




QUOTE=MacSpadger;1072130]Yes, point taken very clearly, the "re-imagining of communities" in particular.

I am very much aware from previous experience that the Irish diaspora have sometimes great passion around this subject, so I have been tiptoing quite carefully. It's really only just starting to dawn on me that for some the wearing of a kilt overseas is not laying claim to an ancestral identity, but creating a new cultural identity based on newly invented or very much altered traditions adapted to the land in which they currently live, hence the wearing of items that would never be seen in the Old Country. (I have once seen a group of men in Dublin wearing kilts, but they turned out to be a Stag Night party over from Edinburgh for the weekend).

It's just an unfortunate effect that re-imaging a community seems to further create a cultural divide between the diaspora and the native inhabitants. Confusion abounds for those of us whose families remained here. That goes for Scots as well as Irish, the "Kirking of the Tartans" springs to mind. As I have said previously, I don't often post here because, quite simply, I often don't know what people are talking about or why they are discussing it. Thanks for keeping it friendly and informative.[/QUOTE]

[MacSpadger]

The old country has no problem adopting `new` traditions such as St Patricks Day parades and the drinking (on that day) which go with it.
An entirely North American diaspora tradition which was adopted by the `home` Irish in the late 1990s if not later.A `real` traditional St Patricks Day in Ireland was (when I grew up there) a day you abstained,went to mass and all pubs were closed.
Its a two way street-the stay at homes adopt the new traditions of the diaspora and soon believe that it was their tradition all along.The same applies to Scotland and everywhere else in the old world for that matter.

Yes, this is very true, the first St Patrick's day parade in Dublin was in 1996, under this was a joint venture with strong input from a committee in New York. This generated a good revenue for the city. I spent time in Ireland in the '60's as a boy and as a teenager in the 70's. I recall quite clearly the pubs being shut and it being a day of religious observance for some.

The first St Patrick's day parade in London was in 2002 and was entirely instigated by Americans living there. This has copied a version of American parades, with Scottish or Scottish Style pipe bands playing Scottish tunes. It is very puzzling for many of us over here to see footage from the New York St Patrick's day parade, where bands wear uniforms clearly based on those worn by the British army to express their Irish heritage. Of course Scottish bands get invited over to New York too, it all seems very mix and match.
At this time of year Irish and Scottish cultural identities seem to be becoming quite blurred in the English media too. Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester have followed suit. It's very much an American import. (I have had a look at the thread regarding the St Patrick's day advert on American TV and have noticed that they have a Great Highland Bagpipe playing a Scottish tune in the background).


The annual Glasgow St Patrick's festival began in 2007, I attended once in 2010. I did not see any kilts or hear any Great Highland bagpipes, (or indeed anything "Celtic"), but there was plenty Irish uillean piping, Irish fiddle playing, Irish dancing and Irish language classes. There were also Irish lectures and Irish history classes as well as rather expensive and sophisticated dinner dances. I think a difference here might be that the emphasis in Glasgow is on Irish history and culture with funding from the Irish Government Support Programme. However, there were also large contingents of African dancers and drummers and Mardi Gras type floats but I've seen these in St Patrick's day events in Dublin and London too, so this style of St Patrick's day celebration no longer seems to be exclusively Irish.

I like to play the bagpipe and only in the last 3 or 4 years have started getting phone calls about playing at St Patrick's day events. I explain I am Scottish and although I know a number of Irish tunes I would not be able to fill an hour with them. A typical response would be similar to the one I got just last week: "Don't worry, just wear the kilt and play Scottish tunes, no-one down here will know the difference".

[CMcG]

Thank you for taking the time to explain these views, but I just can't get my head around it, sorry.

Maybe I am small minded, or a product of my upbringing. I don't know. I was born in the Grampian region and went to college in Inverness. (I also know that I was conceived in Kingussie, my mother told me that and added "and I had a heavy cold at the time". Sometimes mithers can clipe too much). We were taught Gaelic and Highland dancing at primary school, (what you might call Elementary School), and told the history of The Gaels, as it was understood at the time, (we were told the Gaels shared elements of culture witht the Ancient Greeks, so they might be Kelts?), but I don't get this "Celtic" or even "Pan-Celtic" thing at all, it's just alien to me, it really is.

It's like saying "I found out my great grandfather was Japanese so I am going to wear an Indian turban as a symbol of Eastern identity". In my head, I just can't get it to make sense at all. I think it's time I bowed out again before I get dizzy.

I'm happy to oblige with possible explanations, though I'm somewhat dismayed that I have failed to help you understand. Perhaps one more try, from a slightly different angle is in order.

As I mentioned before, I see people's connections to the traditional Scottish kilt as a scale ranging from rock solid to unrelated. On the one end, a Highlander born in the Highlands, who continues to reside there, and comes from a family of kilt wearers dating back to the belted plaid would have the most direct connection. The Congolese sapeurs wear the kilt purely out of appreciation for its sartorial value and probably have the least relationship to the Highland tradition.

The great semiotician Charles Sanders Peirce identified three main types of signs: symbols, indexes, and icons. The first two are germane to this discussion because a symbol is a sign that carries meaning by customary association, while an index signifies by means of relationship, such that smoke is an index of fire. For a Highlander, the kilt could be seen as a symbol of clan and homeland. For Celts more generally, the kilt is an index of Celtic identity because it is the distinctive garment of a one particular group of Celts (Highland Scots).

Leaving aside the whole Pan-Celtic thing for a moment, the Irish are at least Gaels. Roper has written that until fairly recently (in the greater scheme of things) the Highland Scots and the Irish were considered to be one people. Dal Riata and all that. For people of Irish extraction then, it is not such a stretch to appropriate the dress of their fellow Gaels anymore than it is for Lowland Scots to do so.

The fact that this happens more in the diaspora than it does in the old country is not lost on academics. In fact, diaspora studies is a fairly recent and rather vibrant addition to the academy. Anyone who is truly interested in understanding the phenomenon of kilts in the diaspora would be well advised do some research into that area.

As an example of how it works on a systemic level, the Canadian Multiculturalism Act (1985) enshrines not only people's right to preserve the culture they brought with them upon immigration, but also urges them to enhance their cultural background. With legislation like this, is it any wonder that Canadians of Celtic background would wish to embrace a form of ethnic attire, even if it requires an broadly inclusive, ahistorical view their ancestry?

I believe that the rise of transnationalism in a globalized world has caused a reconsideration of what it means to construct cultural identity; Xmarks is actually a perfect example of this, as people from many backgrounds and different places come together for a common interest. The traditional identity of a person born into a specific place and culture, surrounded by similar folk, and having little contact with outside has given way to the intermingling of the local and global, hybrid or hyphenated identity, and flexibility in making connections between things that traditionally might never have intersected.

Perhaps it is hard for some people to accept the spread of the kilt, rather than for them to understand it? Regardless of whether one agrees with the Irish wearing the kilt or not, it happens, as it does with people of other Celtic backgrounds.

[MacSpadger]

Perhaps it is hard for some people to accept the spread of the kilt, rather than for them to understand it? Regardless of whether one agrees with the Irish wearing the kilt or not, it happens, as it does with people of other Celtic backgrounds.

I can quite easily accept the spread of the kilt, I see all kinds of people outside Scotland wearing the kilt; punks, fashionistas, members of the gay community, (particularly down Soho in London on a Saturday night), pop stars, entertainers, etc, etc. Good on 'em.
People have many different reasons and many different styles when it comes to kilt wearing, and I have absolutely no problem with that except for one exception.

I just can't get my head around the wearing of the garment as a symbol of cultural or national identity when you and your ancestors don't have a connection to the country where it is considered, rightly or wrongly a national dress. Sorry.

To me it's still like saying "I found out my great grandfather was Japanese so I am going to wear an Indian turban as a symbol of Eastern identity" or "I found out my great grandfather was Candian so I am going to wear a Mexican sombrero as a symbol of cultural identity with The Americas". I have considered this long and hard but just can't get it to add up. At least the people of Ireland in 1900 seemed to see things this way too. The kilt was not Irish, so they didn't wear it. I am not the only one to get confused here, and I have been told by others that I am wasting my time in trying to make my thoughts clear here, but I have tried. In school I was taught Gàidhlig, not Celtic, I play the Great Highland Bagpipe, not the Celtic pipes, I play Gaelic, Scottish, Irish, Breton, English and Canadian music, not Celtic music. I am pally with some guys from Brittany who I see twice a year for a blast, to me they are Bretons who speak French and Brezhoneg, and they never bang on about being "Celtic" either, apart from one time when there was a recording going on and the TV producer said "Celtic" had to be dropped in to the dialogue "for export reasons".

To be honest, I'd suggest that if anyone is really interested in learning more about their ancestor's culture or expressing their roots, it would do them more good in the long run to learn a bit of Gàidhlig or Gaeilge or Cymraeg, Brezhoneg, Kernowek, etc. You can learn a lot about a culture, ( especially these individual cultures fast disappearing under the commercial onslaught of a bland global homogenised "Celtic" brand name), by learning the language that the people use or even used. To do this takes hard work but the individual will be rewarded by a depth of insight that cannot be compared to simply buying a piece of coloured cloth, no matter how pretty or well made, and wrapping it around your waist to visually state something "Celtic".

That's my take on the whole "National", or "Celtic" or "cultural" aspects. This transnationalism in a globalized world, as you quite rightly put it, is swamping and drowning the small but unique cultures that exist now. To use a smaller example, I used to be able to tell if a piper came from the West coast or East coast or sometimes even who taught them by listening to them. To a certain extent I still can, if he is over 40 or so, but in these days of Skype, CD's, internet tuition, etc, the young ones all sound the same to me. I feel a sense of loss about this.

I can't help but feel that Gaelic Scottishness is akin to a little corner store, and we are standing on the step watching a giant "Celtic" Wal-Mart being built a 100 yards away. I am learning to accept it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't sadden me. That's it, really. Thanks.

[hkjrb623]

individual cultures fast disappearing under the commercial onslaught of a bland global homogenized "Celtic" brand name

I completely agree with this statement. I come from a predominantly Scottish family with Irish and Welsh thrown in a few generations back. I'm proud of all of the individual cultures in my family, but the kilt is Scottish to me. So is the highland pipes which I'm still in the process of learning, not on the internet either. I do have a kilt in an Irish tartan, not to show that side of the family, but because I personally like the tartan. But the amalgamation of "Celtic tribes" is any unfortunate side effect of being American. In most places in the U.S., if you told someone you're Cornish, they'd probably think you came from the Turkey area.

[CMcG]

I just can't get my head around the wearing of the garment as a symbol of cultural or national identity when you and your ancestors don't have a connection to the country where it is considered, rightly or wrongly a national dress. Sorry.

No need to apologize. I guess it's a post-modern diaspora thing, with all the attendant cultural bricolage and recontextualization.

To be honest, I'd suggest that if anyone is really interested in learning more about their ancestor's culture or expressing their roots, it would do them more good in the long run to learn a bit of Gàidhlig or Gaeilge or Cymraeg, Brezhoneg, Kernowek, etc.

Agreed. I took a crack at both Irish and Scottish Gaelic at various points but unfortunately didn't get too far. Apparently there are much better resources for these sorts of things now. I'd say learning the music or sports are also valuable for understanding a culture and I have had somewhat more success with that than language.

I'm currently studying Cantonese in Hong Kong and it definitely has opened up a whole other avenue for approaching Chinese culture. Why a Canadian of Gaelic (amongst other things) ancestry would want to be so involved in another culture is another story...

I can't help but feel that Gaelic Scottishness is akin to a little corner store, and we are standing on the step watching a giant "Celtic" Wal-Mart being built a 100 yards away. I am learning to accept it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't sadden me. That's it, really. Thanks.

This is truly a double-edged sword. Our Xmarks retail partners assure us that if it weren't for a broader interest in things Celtic, that the kilt making and tartan weaving industries would have folded a long time ago; there just aren't enough people in the Highlands to support a whole industry and cottage manufacturing is long since lost.

Whereas the Scottish government has fought to reserve the rights for labeling a whisky as Scotch, it has been much more welcoming of other people getting into the tartan game. This is evidenced in part by the various Irish tartans that have been recognized and recorded by the Scottish Register of Tartans.

I empathize with your sadness at seeing the erosion of traditional Scottish Gaelicness, but I'm glad you are learning to accept that things aren't what they used to be. Hopefully somewhere in all this globalization, there is still room to preserve traditions alongside amalgamations and hybrids.

[macwilkin]

The first St Patrick's day parade in London was in 2002 and was entirely instigated by Americans living there. This has copied a version of American parades, with Scottish or Scottish Style pipe bands playing Scottish tunes. It is very puzzling for many of us over here to see footage from the New York St Patrick's day parade, where bands wear uniforms clearly based on those worn by the British army to express their Irish heritage.

Ironically, the first St. Patrick's Day parade in the colony of New York before the Revolution was reportedly organized by Irish soldiers in the British Army. We also know that Washington's Army observed St. Patrick's Day.

T.