Military Box-Pleats: some questions for the rabble.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

"Other terms", i.e. "military box pleated" have already been applied and are commonly understood to mean a certain style quite distinct from "box-pleated".

I think we need to be very careful here to keep in mind that what may be "commonly understood" by active members of this forum may not, in fact, be "commonly understood" by the kilt wearing and kilt making world at large.

This is a very perfect and clear example. On this forum, when one says "box pleated kilt" one immediately imagines a four yard variety, whereas one must say "military box pleated kilt" if one means the eight yard variety.

However, if one were to approach just about any classically trained kiltmaker in Scotland and ask about a "box pleated kilt" they will immediately assume you mean the modern-day military style kilt. Most will never have heard of a "four yard box pleated kilt."

Really, though, my only point in all of this is that there are but two basic forms of pleating: knife pleats and box pleats. Any other styles of pleating we may imagine are simply variations of these made with differing amounts of material or some combination of the two (such as the Kingussie style which combines one central box pleat with flanking knife pleats). "Military box pleat" does not constitute a third, distinct form of pleating, it is simply one possible form of box pleat.

[LitTrog]

I'm not looking to reopen the semantic free-for-all, but when I look at this picture,



it's like I'm looking at this and seeing only vases.




From a 90 degree perspective (as it's being worn) it looks like a bunch of narrow box pleats--but the in the "cross-section" I'm not seeing anything other than a knife pleat that's been folded over again. Weird.

[Paul Henry]

snip.... "Military box pleat" does not constitute a third, distinct form of pleating, it is simply one possible form of box pleat.

or another person could say another form of knife pleat, as a box pleat actually contains 2 knife pleats back to back.

The simplest element in any tailored pleat is the single fold, which when seen in a kilt is....... the knife pleat!

[sailortats]

LitTrog; thanks for that pic just above in post #42. I can now see what is being said about the pleat. Before this pic I just couldn't understand it. I have been thinking of having my next kilt done with a box pleat.

[xman]

Further, if we reserve the term "box pleat" for a four yard kilt, and use "military box pleat" to describe an eight yard kilt, then what do we call a five yard kilt made with this type of pleat? Or a six yard kilt? Or seven? When does it cross that magic line and become a "military box pleated kilt?"

At six yards or more it is a military box pleat in my mind. There are two reasons for this, my thinking, right or wrong; six yards is about where fell construction takes a turn for the cutting and sewing in canvas, and six yards is the lowest yardage military box pleat (actually used in military service) that I have encountered. I can't even imagine getting it done with less considering sett size and pleat reveal width. It is easy to imagine stretching an historic box pleat up to five yards to get the pleats to land a special way, but one would never really need more than that. Also consider that actual MBP reveal is always under an inch and historic box pleats are 2"-3".

That's just how my brain makes the division. In essence I see what you say that MBP is a box pleated kilt. It is. I also understand that it resembles a knife pleat because of the (usual) pleat depth. Anyone who has inspected an NS Highlanders kilt will know that having deep pleats is by no means a necessity for inclusion in the MBP ranks.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

or another person could say another form of knife pleat, as a box pleat actually contains 2 knife pleats back to back.

The simplest element in any tailored pleat is the single fold, which when seen in a kilt is....... the knife pleat!

That's very true, Paul. I suppose if one were only looking at a single pleat, then any pleat would be considered a knife pleat. One almost needs multiple pleats in order to make a distinction. Do all the pleats run the same way? Knife pleats. Do pairs of pleats run in opposite directions? Box pleats.

[Dixiecat]

or another person could say another form of knife pleat, as a box pleat actually contains 2 knife pleats back to back.

The simplest element in any tailored pleat is the single fold, which when seen in a kilt is....... the knife pleat!

Well, actually..........what makes a box pleat a box pleat, is the box. Hell, pinch pleated drapes are modified box pleats. If you take the box and fold it one way or t'other you get a knife pleat. And, if you fold it another way, you get double box pleats. A very versatile element the pleat is.

Matt, no one is disputing what box pleats are or really how they're made, what I'm seeing here is the confusion on the evolution of the box into a military box when you add all that extra fabric. Can you post pics of how you do a military? It's obvious from the images that you've posted that you can't take a box pleat as you have made it and then create a military box pleat.

[David Thorpe]

Do all the pleats run the same way? Knife pleats. Do pairs of pleats run in opposite directions? Box pleats.

And if both are present, in integral and superimposed pairs, across the entire pleated part of the kilt as in MBP? A variation on box pleats, or a variation on knife pleats? Tomato tomahto. Yin and yang.

I'll shut up and butt out now.

[LitTrog]

I think you've hit upon something, Drummer Boy.

With both the knife and box present, this style shall henceforth be called Hermaphrodite pleating!

Everyone wins! Except, perhaps, the people trying to sell them.

[SlackerDrummer]

Is it a knife pleat folded over on itself? Well, sure it is. I can see that. Take a knife pleat and fold it back on itself and voila, a MBP.

But wait. Is it really a box pleat? Well, yes. That, too. Only because the "reveal" is smaller, you have to do something different with the underlying fabric, so rather than meeting under the middle of the reveal, they have to overlap.

As to why a military box pleat takes more fabric than a regular box pleat is just math. The reveal is smaller, but the distance between A and F is the same.