Traditonal vs. Historical

[Elf]

Firts off, I would like to thank everyone for a most thoughful and enjoyable thread. As someone who spends much of his working life in historic costume, it has become apparent to me that we western folk focus on history while the native folk here in North America focus on tradition. Both sides confuse the two as the same thing, not realizing they are speaking different languages. It has been good to see the view of those outside my circles.

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Where I differ from some others is that I don't think that historic clothing is off limits for modern, non-reenactment wear. For example, I'm currently saving some pennies for a reproduction vest (waistcoat) from the 1880s era... not because I do reenactments (or steampunk), but because I think it will work quite well with some of my modern attire. I think the same applies to a belted plaid. The key is to wear a historical item (e.g., waistcoat or plaid) with otherwise conservative/traditional clothing, in a way that doesn't overtly clash. When you start adding multiple historical elements to traditional clothing, you quickly cross the line into "costume," but when properly done, adding a historical element here or there is simply a matter of personal fashion choice.

In view of my above opening comment, I have several 19th century waistcoats. I have begun wearing them to church, but with modern dress shirts and flat ties. I recieve many positive comments. Surprisingly few realize they are of a period pattern and fabric. The once I wore a period cravat, it "did not fly." All a matter of perspective.

[rmccool]

Firts off, I would like to thank everyone for a most thoughful and enjoyable thread. As someone who spends much of his working life in historic costume, it has become apparent to me that we western folk focus on history while the native folk here in North America focus on tradition. Both sides confuse the two as the same thing, not realizing they are speaking different languages. It has been good to see the view of those outside my circles.

Having spent a little time on the pow wow trail, I have some familiarity with the Native American viewpoint, though I can't claim to fully understand. In fact, that's part of what I appreciate about Native American culture; the ability to combine elements of historical (traditional, in the NA vocabulary) dress with modern clothing to produce a style that's different from current non-Native fashion, but nonetheless contemporary. It's a different version of the effect that Dale produced with a plaid worn with modern clothing and accessories - not a costume, nor reenactment garb, just a look that gives a nod to history without being "historical."

[Jock Scot]

I think there is a definition within Highland attire, that is neither historical, or, traditional and that is "theatrical". Again it is difficult to define, but "theatrical" contains elements of both historical and traditional in varying degrees that are not totally in context of either.

[Peter Crowe]

I think there is a definition within Highland attire, that is neither historical, or, traditional and that is "theatrical". Again it is difficult to define, but "theatrical" contains elements of both historical and traditional in varying degrees that are not totally in context of either.

Funny that you mention this Jock, as I remember both my late mother and my father discountenancing 'theatrical Highland dress' by those who are not in the entertainment business when I was a youngster and learning about wearing the kilt.

[MacLowlife]

A Warning.

For those who are reading this excellent thread with an eye towards designing their own wardrobes, it might be useful to consider that this is a forum for people who wear kilts. I believe it was Thompson who observed in SO YOU'RE GOING TO WEAR THE KILT that wearing a kilt to the corner store is a different thing from wearing it to a St Andrew's or Robert Burns Society meeting. And so, when deciding just how theatrical or historical or modern your outfit is, one might do well to consider that tricky morass: context. A couple of well-read kilt wearers could stand around chatting whilst dressing and egg each other on in their traditions or accuracies or embellishments or fine points. They could attend a gathering of X Markers and draw compliments all night long. They might attract admiration from drinking "civilians" at the next table. But when they stopped off for a quart of milk on the way home, some child would look at them and ask his mother why they were dressed funny. Granted, the same thing would probably happen to a man in a tuxedo or possibly one in full motorcycle leathers.

I think this has been a great discussion and I appreciate particularly Steve's comments above, as well as Jock's- among many other great points. I think it was in another thread that somebody pointed out that a 30 or 40 year old Saxon jacket shows its age in a way that we tend to ignore when looking at THCD. In truth, any 40 year old jacket shows its age and, when Steve asks "what period are you trying to emulate?" the results for an answer of 1940 are actually different from the results from an answer of 1960 or 2000. Thus, an additional element might be considered- not just overall style, but specific time*. All of that is interesting and (to some) important, but I return to my earlier point:

The first thing people notice is the kilt itself. They apply their own context and ideas to it first, then they absorb the way you are wearing it, be you re-enactor, staunch traditionalist, modernist, or rowdy football fan, or some equally valid type of your own choosing.

* Of course, the answer might be that you are dressing in the manner of a 75 year old Scotsman in 2013, which would include elements accumulated in a lifetime of thrift and inheritance, e.g. a 40 year old jacket.

[Hopper250]

MacLowlife is correct. We might all look good dressed to the nines in a PC but, I wouldn't wear a PC to work, and definately not to buy groceries. (Emergancy run for pregnant wife excepted). I would in most cases wear a button down shirt no tie.

[Steve Ashton]

Thank you MacLowlife, this is exactly what I have been trying to get across but could not really come right out and say.

It is not uncommon for new members to come to us with the same types of questions. Such as, "where can I get some spats?". Spats are a common part of the uniform of pipe bands, and for some newbies this way of dressing is all they have ever seen.

We hem and haw around and never seem to come right out and say to the newbie - "Sorry guy, that really borders on the costume if worn outside of your band."

If we were a general mens' clothing site we would see those who prefer the styles of the 1880's or the 1920's too. We would accept and encourage a newbie in their choices but also caution them that they could be seen as 'out of context' when on the street going for groceries.

When I was young I was introduced to the concept of a "Dutch Uncle". That piece of advice that may not be what you want to hear at the time, but which is the truth nothing less.

As the premier site about this topic of the kilt perhaps we should be strong enough to help a newbie and give that "Dutch Uncle' piece of advice.

We get so wrapped up in the ideal of kilt wearing that is 'traditonal'. We use photos from catalogs printed in 1910 and hold these up as the 'proper' way to wear the kilt, forgetting, or ignoring, the context that we will be wearing our kilt in.

Perhaps if we had a section of the forum alongside our Historical, Traditional, Modern sections, specifically for Uniforms/Re-enactment/Performance. A newbie who wishes to wear a Great Kilt could be directed to that section to learn how, and when, the Great Kilt would be appropriate. Our pipers could show off their uniforms knowing full well that they would probably not dress the same way going to work.

[Dale Seago]

Excellent points from Jock, MacLowlife, and yourself, Steve.

Perhaps if we had a section of the forum alongside our Historical, Traditional, Modern sections, specifically for Uniforms/Re-enactment/Performance. A newbie who wishes to wear a Great Kilt could be directed to that section to learn how, and when, the Great Kilt would be appropriate. Our pipers could show off their uniforms knowing full well that they would probably not dress the same way going to work.

I think that is an AWESOME idea!!!

[Nathan]

Perhaps if we had a section of the forum alongside our Historical, Traditional, Modern sections, specifically for Uniforms/Re-enactment/Performance. A newbie who wishes to wear a Great Kilt could be directed to that section to learn how, and when, the Great Kilt would be appropriate. Our pipers could show off their uniforms knowing full well that they would probably not dress the same way going to work.

I like this idea, especially for uniforms although I'd probably separate uniforms from re-enactment/performance and I'm not quite sure how re-enactment would differ from Historical. Perhaps I was not reading the thread closely enough?

[Sir Didymous]

I rather like the idea of a specialized sub-forum on the idea of uniforms for pipe band and/or reenactors in the more modern parts of kilt history (any regulated kilt-based uniformed regiment). The section of historical attire might however seem to include this. I admittedly do not wear the more historical fashions that I am asking about at all times. right now I am wearing a knock about PV kilt in the Freedom(Gold Brothers) tartan that wasn't on the registry until 2005(?) with a tan button down with the sleeves rolled to 3/4 length. I wouldn't ever wear that to a reenactment or anything where being "dressed" would be an issue. I went grocery shopping. Now I like historical fashions, but I do understand that they are not always appropriate. The mix that I have been working with is experimental at best, and heck, I've been the odd one in my community for a long time anyway. When I am performing a church service with just my congregation for example; they have grown to accept my eccentricities so I can wear the older styles with little to no hesitation (within reason). But when officiating a wedding, (like I will be tomorrow) I dress far more conservatively (suit or vestments as per the wishes of the couple). I've just been trying to determine the rough cutoff for the "traditional" and the "historical". The lines are more hazy for the more formal styles (doublets, diced hose, and such), but in general this discussion has helped clear things considerably. The chief reason that kilts have become a part of my non-reenactment life (aside from my wife who likes the way I look in them) is because of their tradition. I must be careful though that I am observing current traditions (sometimes with a bit of an antique-ish charm), and not the historical traditions.