"Stewart Hunting Ancient" or "Ancient Hunting Stewart"? The grammar Nazi weighs in...

[Barb T]

I agree - "Ancient Old XXX" is awkward and confusing. I'd say Ancient MacMillan, Old Sett or Ancient MacMillan, Old Colors or Ancient MacMillan, Wilson Colors. And, when I made a kilt in the Ancient Stewart, Old Sett, and I listed it that way on the accompanying kilt passport (ditto the Weathered Stewart, Old Sett).

And I totally agree with Kyle's list!

[Pipersson]

I would understand "Ancient Hunting Stewart" as a different, older sett than "Stewart Hunting ancient" like Old Stewart or Old Buchanan. As some weavers call the ancient colours "old" colours...

[BLHS209]

Since most references are cataloged in that order, and since I don't normally begin my searches by saying "You know, I think I'd like to pick out a weathered tartan... let's see what weathered tartans are out there", I tend to think "Buchanan Hunting Ancient."

I agree with Barb, it is poor grammar the way people are using the names/titles.

But, in using the phrase "Buchanan Hunting Ancient" - what is missing, it's the coma's. My guess is the early databases used and the conversions since had/have stripped the coma's from the name. And people being too lazy to 'reapply' are now using "Buchanan Hunting Ancient" as the name.

Chris

[Elf]

So totally going off the board, would bending grammar be intentional to give a certain "mystique?" the same way olde spellings are brought back.

Then another possible thought. How would word order go in Gaelic? (I have no knowlege there so this is pure speculation.) Could that have influenced the English usage?

[creagdhubh]

One additional complexity:

For those clans who have an "Ancient", "Old", or "Old Sett" tartan (denoting a different sett, as opposed to the "Ancient" or "Old Colors" color scheme) it would be nice not to add confusion by the naming system, i.e. "Ancient Ancient MacMillan"...





Not to be confused with...




You with me, MacLL?

Hahahahaha!!! Excellent point, David!

[Barb T]

But, in using the phrase "Buchanan Hunting Ancient" - what is missing, it's the commas. My guess is the early databases used and the conversions since had/have stripped the commas from the name. And people being too lazy to 'reapply' are now using "Buchanan Hunting Ancient" as the name.

Agreed. If the modifier comes after the name, there should be a comma (e.g., Ferguson, Ancient or Buchanan, Weathered). Same thing when using a title such as MBE or OBE or LLC or PhD or Esq. People are sloppy about commas there, too. It should be, e.g., Pipe Major J. B. Robertson, MBE (or M.B.E. - see the CD of his tunes - http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2404041). Same thing with Barbara Tewksbury, PhD or Galifreian, LLC or George Grindley, Esq.

[tundramanq]

In writing or oral, if you start with The and end with tartan, you can use any order that best rolls off your tongue without breaking grammar rules or causing confusion. Everything is then a modifier of the noun, tartan.

[Elf]

[QUOTE=Elf;1194749]So totally going off the board, would bending grammar be intentional to give a certain "mystique?" the same way olde spellings are brought back.QUOTE]

I should add, laying mental gymnastics aside, I agree with the general direction of this thread. Catalog organization has become common usage, but bowing to Barb, we should be using the commas.

[MacLowlife]

Thanks, DLP, for reminding us of why we venerate age in the first place. Before launching into my inevitable academic discussion, let me first remind everyone of what people say about Academic Politics- the fights are so bitter because the stakes are so low.

Having got that off my chest, I need to admit that my first kilt is a 9oz or so Ancient Hunting Stewart. I bought one for myself and one for my brother. Before I was emancipated by the knowledge that Anyone Can Wear Anything, I would sometimes hem and haw about my claim to wear the Stewart. I usually would explain, since my claim was not entirely cast iron solid, that I was wearing the Ancient Poaching Stewart.

Because I am trying to, I can't immediately summon up an example of the constructions in English where we place the modifier right after the noun. The best I can do is borrow from French, where it happens every day: Chaise Longue.

[unixken]

Because I am trying to, I can't immediately summon up an example of the constructions in English where we place the modifier right after the noun. The best I can do is borrow from French, where it happens every day: Chaise Longue.

First to pop into my head: "Heir apparent"