What would you do?

[Chas]

If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company?
How would I know if permission was granted or not? How can a negative be proved? People who deal in rumour, inuendo and supposition are beneath contempt.

Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here?
Require all advertisers to supply copyright details for all the pictures, graphics and text that they claim to be theirs. If they can't or won't supply the details, they should be out.

Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent?
Until reading this thread, I was not aware that Utilikilts were patented. I am sure that I am not alone in this. I have seen many utility kilts, but cannot tell one from the other, so how do I know if one is a knock-off or not?

Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here?
I do not know, what I don't know, so how can I know if I am buying from one of these companies or not?

Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard?
I do not know what this means. Higher than what standard or who's standard?

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks?
Were there not a vast number of sports shoe manufacturers involved in just this scandal about 15 years ago? I am talking about multi-billion dollar companies, but in the end they broke no laws.

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder?
How would I know who the copyright holder is?

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?
Price, linked to quality are the overriding factors. I seek value for money in all things I purchase.

Ethics is an almost impossible thing to pin down - everybody has their own private standards and moral compass and they are far from universal and far from being the same.
Whereas the law is the law. We might not like it, but it is the framework which shapes all our lives. A man can be as ethical as he likes, but what happens when the law requires him to take a contrary action? Does he stick with his ethics or does he follow the law? Would we be happy buying from an ethical criminal?
I think it is a slippery slope setting an artificially high standard that others have to follow.
It is wrong to allow the general membership to be sinners, but insist that the vendors be saints.

[orionpyoung]

In an ideal world, yes, no, no and yes. But practicly speaking, if you need more revenue to support the site then do what you must to keep the community alive. If you needed to include sub par vendors then the "XMTS, X of Approoval" idea would be a great way of maintaining the ethics we all support.

Also, I would love to see a donate button at the top of the page! Perhaps even an indicator of how much support is coming from the community.

[Steve Ashton]

Would everyone please understand that my reason for asking these questions is not that I need more money. I am not out beating the bushes for more advertisers. In fact I don't seek out advertisers at all.

I would much prefer that advertisers come here because they realize that if you are in the kilt business this is the place to be.

Thank you for the suggestions and offers to help financially with paid memberships but that is not what this thread is about either. I have never considered, and can think of no way, that paid memberships will ever be a part of X Marks.

The single best way to support this community is by being an active and participating member. Support those who advertise here when you can with your dollars, but support your fellow members with your posts.

My only reason for starting this thread is to get a better feeling for where you think the future of the forum should be.

Of course I could accept Google ads. I could also accept any of the companies that do approach me on an almost weekly basis. So I started this thread to gauge your feelings on what is important to you when it comes to accepting a new or continuing an existing advertiser.



As this forum has grown over the years it has become a 'voice' in the kilt world. I know for a fact that all of the big manufacturers and suppliers and weavers do know about us. They may not be advertisers here but almost all of them have one company representative who is a member here.
The world is listening.

I just need to know what you feel you want our voice to say.




I will have to give some more thought to a Donate button. There have been more than a few cases where a member had his kilt stolen or where a kilt was given to a member in a "Pay-it-forward" way.
There is a built in feature of the vBulletin software for this.
Perhaps a member supported program that would put aside a small "kitty" of funds to help out a fellow member would have merit. I owe it to all of you first to find a way to insure that any such 'kitty' were handled in a responsible and transparent manner.

[Hiburnicus]

I'm quite happy to find that this site is a refuge from the excess surplusage of redundant advertising that bombards me at every turn in life. It's nice to not feel so overloaded with unwanted and unwelcome intrusion. Thanks, Steve.

Hiburnicus

[Kylahullu]

I would much prefer that advertisers come here because they realize that if you are in the kilt business this is the place to be.

I just disabled my add-blocking application for this site in my web-browser and realised that here are two categories of businesses. "Partners" and "Advertisers". What is the difference?

[Steve Ashton]

In the forum listing the Partners are those that have their ads on the top banner. These are usually the larger, oldest advertisers. Usually ones with a brick and mortar location. Not a hard and fast rule.

The Advertisers are those on the side banner and on the footer banner. In general these are smaller, usually home based with a smaller advertising budget. We try to provide advertising space tailored to the needs and budget without breaking the bank.

In the past advertisers did not have their own forum section. Nor could they put embedded links to their websites in their signature blocks or have their company logo as their avatar. I felt after a while that that was unfair. Now all our advertisers are equal except for the location of their ads.

[usonian]

Thanks for reaching out to the community for feedback, Steve. Very interesting questions for me, who has been considering signing up as an advertiser. My answers inline

If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company?

No. Apart from the photos being stolen intellectual property, it would be make question whether the item I'm purchasing even resembled the item represented in the stolen photo. And if a company can't even be bothered to obtain legitimate photos of its own products, it doesn't inspire confidence in their ability to fulfill orders or deal with customers.

Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here?

Insofar as I think it would leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth (even if there were some kind of disclaimer,) no.

Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent?

Count me among those who were surprised to learn that Utilikilts are patented. If I am reading the patent correctly it seems to me that the main focus of the 'invention' is more that it is pleated all the way around with extremely narrow front aprons - the 'Background of the invention' goes on at length about the disadvantages of 'prior art kilts' not having pleats all the way around. (Restricts motion, restricts line of sight due to front aprons kicking out)

I know next to nothing about patent or intellectual property laws, but if there were a dispute over another kiltmaker using symmetrical pleats in the back of their garment, surely historical garments like the Muirhead kilt are prior art? My own take on this specific issue is that I think that a patent on a style of pleating is a bit of a reach, but that's just me. I would have no problem with an advertiser that happens to make kilts with reverse kingussie pleats... However assuming "knock-off" means outright copying Utilikilt's designs (front and back) then no, I would not be confident buying from such a company.

Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here?

Again, I'd have no personal problem buying from a company who makes kilts with symmetrical rear pleats, nor with their advertising here... but I wouldn't buy from a company that rips off Utilikilt's distinctive overall design nor would I particularly care to see them among the advertisers here.

Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard?

Trying to define "ethical" for the purposes of a blanket evaluation for advertisers is a bit of a rabbit hole. I think that X-Marks members would look dimly on advertisers who they deemed to be unethical for one reason or another - bad customer service, poorly made products, misrepresented products, etc... but the question of what's ethical is a slippery one; apart from intellectual property, there are questions of fair trade/labor/materials/et cetera.

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks?

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder?

I'm having a hard time thinking of an example as relates to kilts and accessories (other than someone selling stitch-for-stitch copies of a specific, modern product that is clearly attributable to a specific company), but I'll answer based on the analogy of a sidewalk vendor who sells what are clearly pirated DVDs of hollywood movies that are without a doubt still under copyright - I would not buy from such a vendor, nor would I care to see them among the advertisers here.

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?

I think most people weigh their decisions on both. The impression that I get from the most active and vociferous members of X-Marks is that 'ethical' (which I take to mean honest dealing of quality goods) usually trumps price.

[MonkeyRogue]

I used to be in IT, but since I left that world I really don't find myself being a part of an online community. I chose to join here because I noticed that the only advertisers were the people talking in the forums. At first I thought it was rather insular. Then I realized, this is a family of kilt-lovers. That made me take notice.

No I believe that if you hold yourself to a higher standard you can raise the common demoninator. I have yet to buy a kilt, because I refuse to support these sweat shops. Their prices ARE better, but I would rather know that if I bought something from someone they would stand behind their product. And I know I can trust Rocky and Bryce and everyone else who I've seen around here to back up what they sell and at least take the time to explain something if I'm too dense to get it right.

I like knowing I joined a group who aren't elitest, (the door was left open, sorry!) but that at least I can trust. Even if I can't talk about certain issues.

For instance, Why is only one Doctor Who companion wearing a kilt? And why was HE the dumb one?!


*ahem*

Back to the discussion.

[Steve Ashton]

One of the requirements I put on every advertiser is that they first be an active and participating member of X Marks.

This is partly due to the unique nature of forum sections. If a member posts a question about a product or service in an advertisers forum section there better be someone there to respond.

This gives our member a feeling that they know those who advertise here. We begin to see personalities and not just ad hype.

A very unique opportunity for everyone.

And a very heartbreaking one when it is alleged that one of our members has, and continues to, infringe on another companies copyright.

[Kylahullu]

This gives our member a feeling that they know those who advertise here. We begin to see personalities and not just ad hype.

A very unique opportunity for everyone.

This feels a bit like it was in an old village shop. Everyone knew everyone. You went there to have a chat with the shopkeeper and other customers, hear the latest news, perhaps smoke a pipe-full as much as doing your shopping.