A Newbie Question

[Father Bill]

Yes; time to re-read the original question and respond further to it.

[Bluethunder90]

At some of our local gatherings the only guy who is Scottish-born, is a black guy. HE more than any of us Americans has "the right to wear the kilt" if indeed such a "right" has ever existed.

Here's a battalion of The Royal Regiment of Scotland. As you can see it mirrors the multi-ethnic nature of Scotland itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueRQEpDda4c

Great video! Very sharp looking unit!

[Bluethunder90]

Jock, in South Africa we also have a broader sense of family than just the descendants of our grandparents.
We talk quite easily of uncles, aunts, cousins, nephews and nieces who are not strictly that closely related to us. In fact, in Afrikaans the words for uncle and aunt (oom and tannie) are generally used as terms of respect for older people regardless of relationship.
But there is also a considerable degree of relationship among compatriots.
Being part Afrikaner, I share ancestors with South Africans from all parts of the country.
And (considering this is a discussion that is partly about BlueThunder’s antecedents), many white Afrikaner families have ancestors who were brown African (indigenous to the Cape), black African (Angolan or Dahomeyan), Indian or Malayo-Indonesian.
Many brown South Africans (broadly known as Coloured) have ancestors who were white (including Scots, Irish, Welsh and English), as well as Bantu-speaking African, Indian, Malayo-Indonesian or even Chinese.
And some Bantu-speaking South Africans are descended from Englishwomen who were stranded in the Xhosa country and married Xhosa-speakers. Quite a large family is descended from the Rev Tiyo Soga, a Xhosa minister of the Church of Scotland who had a Scottish wife, Janet Burnside. One of his daughters-in-law was also a Scot.

Getting back to tartans, BlueThunder has had a good selection of tartans suggested to him.
I am sure he won’t stop at just one.
Regards,
Mike

Stop at one? Where's the fun in that?

I find it interesting that you say in South Africa the terms for uncle and aunt are used as terms of respect for elders, regardless of actual familial relationship, because the exact same thing is done here in Hawaii. Children here will call older people uncle or aunt as general term of respect.

[Bluethunder90]

Welcome to be forum! Ive read through this whole thread and I've taken two things from it all...

Your signature quotes! Two people I hold in high respect for different reasons. the book of five rings is a current study of mine.

Thank you! I use that quote as reminder to myself to always be better today than I was yesterday, and tomorrow be better than I am today

[Bluethunder90]

High jacked? I think so. My fault and I can only apologise for leading people astray.

Not at all; I'm enjoying the reading. I've already learned something. I've learn that in general, most British people are uncomfortable with someone putting their arm around their shoulders, and encroaching on their personal space. I've learned that they are not comfortable with that encroachment in either a physical or familial manner, such as using the term cousin. Americans are known for needing their 18 inches of personal space, but will think nothing of throwing an arm around your shoulders, or around your waist to take a picture. Here in Hawaii, complete strangers will hug and kiss you, sometimes directly on the lips when you greet them or are introduced to them; it's completely expected that if introduced to a female friend or family member, you will hug them and kiss them on the cheek, and a guy will either get a bro hug, or a full body hug; it's completely normal here. It's a good reminder that what may be the norm in your society, may not necessarily be accepted behavior in other cultures.

[Bluethunder90]

Four per cent of the Scottish population are from visible minorities and while they may or may not have been born in Scotland, they are Scots (certainly by Jock Scot's definition) and are arguably "entitled" to be kilted. One should not make assumptions based on appearance, so go ahead and wear a kilt and enjoy it as much as the rest of us do!

Thank you! I look forward to getting kilted

[Jock Scot]

Not at all; I'm enjoying the reading. I've already learned something. I've learn that in general, most British people are uncomfortable with someone putting their arm around their shoulders, and encroaching on their personal space. I've learned that they are not comfortable with that encroachment in either a physical or familial manner, such as using the term cousin. Americans are known for needing their 18 inches of personal space, but will think nothing of throwing an arm around your shoulders, or around your waist to take a picture. Here in Hawaii, complete strangers will hug and kiss you, sometimes directly on the lips when you greet them or are introduced to them; it's completely expected that if introduced to a female friend or family member, you will hug them and kiss them on the cheek, and a guy will either get a bro hug, or a full body hug; it's completely normal here. It's a good reminder that what may be the norm in your society, may not necessarily be accepted behavior in other cultures.

Thank you for that. We do do the kissing thing a bit. Its really a peck on the cheek and a British man may give his mother, grand mother and a very dear and old lady friend a peck on the cheek. The privilege is not given(emerges) lightly. I notice a peck on both cheeks is now becoming more common.

We do have "uncles" and or "aunts" that are not related to the family too. They would be very dear, trusted and old family friends and the title of "uncle/aunt" is not handed out(emerge) lightly and are few in number within the family. It is not something that is handed out in any formal way , but the "title" emerges overtime and is really a term of endearment and rather touching.

None of these procedures have any written rules and much like kilt attire these conventions seem to emerge overtime. Again it is this "bulldozing" of kilt conventions by those outwith Scotland that cause such angst within the home of the kilt. The one interesting and surprising thing that" Food For Thought 2(FFT2)" identified for me is that the younger generation of Scotland(the ones doing the survey at least)are in the words of a member here, Sir William, who observed " the youngsters of Scotland are going 180 degrees in the opposite direction to those on this website". To be fair, there are members here who take the time to learn the more traditional ways of the kilt, which I personally find rewarding and they then adapt and modify their attire accordingly to a greater or lesser extent whilst still keeping their non Scottish slant on kilt attire. It is these unwritten conventions and subtle nuances, gathered over a lifetime of kilt wearing, that I and others find so difficult to explain to those who have little or no knowledge of kilt protocols or the foundation of British social protocols and is obvious that those that do listen find it so difficult to grasp. Such is international life, it seems!

[OC Richard]

Yes these things about personal space are very interesting!

Here in California yes the "bro-hug" is common. Some people find it offputting, they're usually not from around here.

It's funny what you say about the "18 inches of personal space" because I became aware of it when I started hanging around with Irish people in a local Irish pub. The owner and the employees were all from Clare, the customers mostly Irish (from all over Ireland, though many were from Clare too).

When these Clare-men would talk to me they would get their face very close to mine, and unconsciously trying to maintain a greater distance I would take a step back. They, trying to maintain a closer distance, would take a step forward, and so it would go until I was backed against a wall with a Clare face right up into mine and me having nowhere to go! It took some getting used to.

Also taking getting used to was their way of speaking cryptically, leaving much to inference. I was quite used to this manner of speaking when, years later, I began attending a church with an Irish Pastor. The American congregation was often baffled by his homilies, but they made a certain sort of sense to me.

About "uncles" and "aunts" for sure back in West Virginia it's common. I grew up with an uncle around who I didn't discover until years later wasn't related to us, but was my father's closest boyhood friend. When our children were small, when talking to them I would refer to a couple who were long-time dear friends as their "aunt" and "uncle" and their children as my childrens' "cousins" which annoyed my wife, a native Californian, no end.

[ctbuchanan]

Thank you! I use that quote as reminder to myself to always be better today than I was yesterday, and tomorrow be better than I am today

Well then perhaps you are a Buchanan! Our motto is that exact sentiment: Clarior Hinc Honos (translated) Brighter the Honor Hence(forth). Meaning may the honor of our Clan grow brighter with each day and each generation.

Welcome to the rabble from Olde New England where we do call Clansmen cousin, will occasionally give you a hug if you need one, but never ever kiss you. We are New Englanders after all.

[Jock Scot]

I have to confess that I don't know what a "bro-hug" is!