Tartan Types and Purposes:

[Daneel]

Graham wrote:
"What's the deal with saffron and the Republic of Eire? is it a catholic/protestant problem? 'scuse my ignorance."


Jimmy Replied "The Republic equates them with the Ulsters in the North. Basically, your question is your answer. I refuse to do the "Tague/Prod" thing, and refer to the "troubles" as North and South.
It's a shame for those of us that are in the culture since those Saffron Kilts are awesome!"

I come from the "prod" tradition and I wear a Saffron kilt (see my Gallery). I only wear it in public when I am in my Scout Uniform or on St Patricks Day. It is regarded as a nationalist symbol (Irish Soldiers, Dancers etc),and could cause me to have problems if I wore it in the wrong places. I don't care about the symbolism of the colour etc however I live in a place that see symbols in everything. For example my late brother in law bought an orange coloured fleece jacket. He liked and wore it into his work (the local council). After he had been in for a while his boss called him into his office and asked him if he was tryed to incite a riot in the place. He asked what do you mean, the reply was that the jacket could be seen as an show of protestant / loyalist power and cause trouble with the catholic / republican workers in the office. He was asked to remove it and not wear it again. I was planning to buy a Honda 750 Race Replica. However the Red White and Blue colour scheme was not a good idea. So in Northern Ireland colour does matter. I also have to be aware that kilt wearing in also seen as a protestant statement because I am Ulster Scots and the bulk of Scots who "Planted" the north of Ireland where Protestants. So by defination a kilt equals protestant. Having said all of that I would not live anywhere else!

[Jimmy Carbomb]

OUTSTANDING post Daneel!!! Outstanding indeed!

The symbolism and the heritage goes WAY beyond the kilts! For those living in the nether-regions of an open society like the United States, there's really nothing that can be equated to the THICK feelings.

Maybe this will give some a better insight into the complaints of the Native Americans, when they see a College mascot in full Chief regalia. Maybe our buddies in the Great White North can relate to the complaints from the Inuit.

In any case, you made the point that's the most important with the entire thread. KNOW YOUR TARTAN! Know that there's a history behind it. Know that there's a pride in your choice. Know that if you wear the tartan... there's always the chance that you will be questioned about it. Kilts are FAR more than clothing (as our Scottish friends have been so adept at pointing out).

KNOW YOUR TARTAN!!!

[bubba]

Where I live people don't know the difference between a Royal Stewart and a MacNeil tartan. Frankly, I've been kind of educating some folks around here. As far as they go is a tartan is a kilt, solid color is a skirt and they can't get past that. However, they're very militant on Dutch heritage. Every other person in this town is a Van something. I can pretty much get away with wearing any tartan that I like here and most have pretty well adjusted to the crazy Scot in their midst.

[Colin]

The Mackenzie Tartan is NOT a "ladies tartan" (save maybe the "Ladies from Hell"!) -- The Mackenzie was used by two Scottish Regiments, the Old Seaforth Highlanders, amalgamated with the Camerons in 1961 to form the Queens Own Highlanders, and again in 1994 with the Gordons to form the Highlanders, as well as the Highland Light Infantry, who merged with the Royal Scots Fusiliers in the 60's to form the Royal Highland Fusiliers. The Seaforths of Canada also wear the Tartan, which is very appropriate, since Alexander Mackenzie was the first European to reach the Pacific in BC in 1793!

Cheers!

T.

Thanks for the info Todd. My mom is a Mackenzie, so that is one of my favourite tartans and I wear it proud. Luceo Non Uro!

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Okay, let's get this straightened-out before it gets WAY too confusing.

There's a HUGE difference between the MacKenzie Tartan... and the MacKenzie DRESS Tartan!!!

When Bubba posted his question, it was concerning the MacKenzie DRESS Tartan.

YES, the Regiments use MacKenzie but NOT the DRESS tartan. That one comes from the Scottish Tartan Authority.

Dang! I even started to get confused!

[macwilkin]

Jimmy...whew! I was worried there that someone had "mislabeled" the Mackenzie tartan!

Bubba: Tell your Dutch neighbours about the "Dutch" tartan -- it's full name is "Dutch-Mackay", in honour of Baron Mackay, who was Prime Minister of the Netherlands and the Chief of the Clan Mackay in the 19th century. The Mackays fought for the Dutch during the 30 Year's War (because the Mackays were militant Protestants, and the Calvinist Dutch were fighting the Catholic Spanish), and many of them, along with other Scottish mercenaries, settled in Holland. So, your Dutch neighbours can wear a kilt!

Check out: http://www.clanmackayusa.org/images/mktartns.jpg

for a picture of the Dutch Tartan, second from left. The colours are red, white and blue for the Dutch flag, although originally the flag was orange, white & blue for the House of Orange (William of Orange, "Good King Billy" and all that!)

Cheers!

T.

[Colin]

That's too funny. The Mackay side of my family comes from Holland, Manitoba.

[macwilkin]

Colin,

Wow -- what a coincedence, eh? 8)

T.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

I'm seriously considering starting a thread called:
Tartan and the English language

We've all learned that the term "dress" doesn't mean "formal" when it comes to tartans. Hmmm.

Now we have word from the Tartan Registry that Black Watch is not, what some are calling, "open".

Here's the confusing part:

"The tartan was known in the 18 century as the “Government Tartan” and is based on the Royal tartan. It then became known as the “Universal” tartan and now is called the “Black Watch” tartan."

There's every possibility that folks are taking "universal" to mean "open to all".

Where's Paul Harvey with "The Rest of the Story" when we need him? 8)

[Mr. Kilt]

I come from the "prod" tradition and I wear a Saffron kilt (see my Gallery). I only wear it in public when I am in my Scout Uniform or on St Patricks Day. It is regarded as a nationalist symbol (Irish Soldiers, Dancers etc),and could cause me to have problems if I wore it in the wrong places. I don't care about the symbolism of the colour etc however I live in a place that see symbols in everything. For example my late brother in law bought an orange coloured fleece jacket. He liked and wore it into his work (the local council). After he had been in for a while his boss called him into his office and asked him if he was tryed to incite a riot in the place. He asked what do you mean, the reply was that the jacket could be seen as an show of protestant / loyalist power and cause trouble with the catholic / republican workers in the office. He was asked to remove it and not wear it again. I was planning to buy a Honda 750 Race Replica. However the Red White and Blue colour scheme was not a good idea. So in Northern Ireland colour does matter. I also have to be aware that kilt wearing in also seen as a protestant statement because I am Ulster Scots and the bulk of Scots who "Planted" the north of Ireland where Protestants. So by defination a kilt equals protestant. Having said all of that I would not live anywhere else!

Arrrgggggggg!!!!!
This is getting so confusing!

Ok...in the spring of 2007 my wife and I hope to take a trip to N. Ireland to see if we can trace my father's family history. They came from Larne, in C. Antrim from what I can tell. The family, to the best of my knowledge, is of protestant background, although I personally don't subscribe to organized religion. There is a possibility that they were originally immigrants from Scotland, although I have not been able to confirm that. That's part of the reason for the trip.

Is it safe to wear my Black Watch kilt in N. Ireland, or would I be better off with something like a Maple Leaf or other regional Canadian tartan, or perhaps I should just leave my kilt(s) at home?

Any help, especially from someone who lives there, would be greatly appreciated!