US Veterans, militaria, etc...

[TheForrester]

First of all.. Thanks for your services, y'all. I'd have joined Air Force if it weren't for my deafness to continue my long family tradition of serving in the armed forces.

I always grind my teeth whenever I read how the phonies out there pretends to serve/partake in the action while they were safe behind a monitor in the same time. It's a dishonorable act, and disrespectful to our armed brothers, and sisters.

Once again.. Thanks for your services.

Agree 100%. A childhood injury prevented my service, but I operated Army MARS for many years to support my friends (can't call them "brothers", though I wish I could) overseas, especially Vietnam, which led to a Civilian Commendation medal from U.S. Army during Desert Storm. I do wear that miniature proudly, along with civilian miniatures when I am in black tie or higher.

Again - thank you for your service, Gentlemen and Ladies!!

[Downunder Kilt]

Cardinal,
Well said.
I served in RVN as a grunt and stuck around thru Astan so I get your observation.
I have a problem with the award display for a reason you indicated. I've found no one really 'vets' individuals and have run into so many phony's that I look askance at those that wear their decorations at a drop of the hat....looking for a place to go 'on display'.
One of the groups I belong to 'outs' posers that claim Special Forces Regiment service.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/index.php
After RVN no one 'posed' as a solder because it was unpopular but today I run into bogus hero's all the time...honestly. I've heard more BS war stories at our local Legion that I no longer attend.
There was a SAMS ind. at the last meet wearing his awards out of sequence....a simple mistake or.....
If they didn't wear an awards display...the phonies would not participate.
I've honestly met more phony SF types than real since retiring....but I do call them out and at the next Prescott games I will have a discussion with the ind. mentioned above.
I have no more patience with that.
Bit of a rant I know, but, for those that never served do not take a gents 'word' for his exploits....I've never met a combat soldier that shared harrowing tales with civilians as they don't get it anyway....we only BS, with our close mates, usually about the funny stuff unless remembering a guy gone.
If a guy is telling you about being knee deep in hand grenade pins there is a 99.99% chance he is full of it.
Rant over.

Gentlemen. Some time ago Father Bill asked that if you are going to use acronyms,words that are used in a particular field of employment, slang etc. that the first time you use the word in a post that you explain what it means then everyone can understand what is going on
Reiver, I understand that you were in South Vietnam (RVN ) but then you Stuck around for iran? ( Astan is a small village in Iran)Please advis.e Cheers and thanks for your service

[Reiver]

Ok, I speak in acronyms all the time...drives my wife nuts sometimes.
I served from RVN to Iraq/Afghanistan (Astan....there are a bunch of 'stans' lol)

[cacunn]

I served in the Republic of Vietnam on heavy artillery in Northern I Corp. As a Vietnam vet I have seldom acknowledged my service and even with the serge patriotism. The most I normally do is wear a miniature Vietnam Service Ribbon on my suit jackets.

Having said that my answer to the question why wear military medals and awards (medals) when wearing a kilt. You should not wear medals because you are kilted. You should wear medals because you earned them and the right to wear them. You should wear them when ever you wish and when appropriate. Another member, Friday, posted the following information in the thread at http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...entagon-80764/


"This responds to your letter of August 8, 2013, in reference to correspondence from a constituent, Mr. XXXX XXXXXXX, who seeks guidance on the proper wear of military medals and decorations on civilian attire by retired and veteran Service members. Because my office is responsible for Departmental policy for the wear of the uniform, I have been asked to reply.

In general, retired and honorably discharged Service members are peimitted to wear their military uniform proudly at parades on National or State holidays, other parades or ceremonies of a patriotic character in which any Active or Reserve U.S. military unit is taking part, as well as military funerals, memorial services, weddings, or inaugurals, in accordance with Department of Defense Instruction (DoDI) 1334.01 "Wearing of the Uniform." While Federal law and overall DoD policy do not state how specific military decorations may be appropriately displayed on civilian clothing; the Military Services have developed additional uniform^-regulations uniform regulations which we believe are responsive to Mr. XXXXXX's request.

Retired and former members of the Army (including Active Duty, Reserve Component, or Army National Guard) may wear all categories of authorized medals on appropriate civilian clothing. "Appropriate civilian clothing" includes apparel designed for veteran and patriotic organizations on Veterans Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at formal ceremonies and social functions of a military nature. Specifically, Army Regulation (AR) 670-1, "Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia," paragraph 30-6, states that honorably-discharged personnel may wear full-size or miniature medals, and should place the medals in approximately the same location and appearance as the Army uniform. Former members of an Army unit also may wear the distinctive unit insignia on their breast pocket or lapel.

Per Air Force Instruction (AFI) 36-2903, "Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel," paragraphs 11.4, retired and honorably discharged Air Force members may wear full-size or miniature medals on civilian suits or equivalent dress on similar appropriate patriotic occasions. Medals should be worn in the approximate location and manner as the official Air Force uniform. Retirees may wear also the retired lapel pin on civilian attire, on the left lapel. If a member is authorized to wear the Command insignia pin, it should be placed on the same side, below the retired lapel pin.

Similarly, former Naval personnel are permitted to wear miniature medals and breast insignia on civilian evening dress (white tie) or civilian dinner dress (black tie) in the same manner as for dinner dress jackets, in accordance with Navy Uniform Regulations, Chapter 6, paragraph 61002, subparagraph 7. For more casual events, personnel may wear miniature replicas of ribbons made in the form of lapel buttons, or ribbons made in rosette form, on the left lapel of civilian clothes, including honorable discharge and service buttons on left lapel of civilian clothes. Similarly, former members may wear miniature distinguished marksmanship and pistol shot badges as a lapel pin or as part of a tie clasp on civilian clothing.


The Marine Corps permits all decorations, medals, appropriate ribbon bars, or lapel buttons to be worn on civilian clothes at the individual Marine's discretion, in accordance with Marine Corps Uniform Regulation, MCO P1020.34G, Chapter 5, paragraph 5105. Individuals should ensure that the occasion and the manner of wearing will not reflect discredit on the Service or award. Miniature medals may be worn with civilian formal dress. For non-formal dress, miniature replicas of ribbons made in the form of enameled lapel buttons, or ribbons made in rosette form, may be worn on the left lapel of civilian clothes. Honorable discharge, retirement, and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve (FMCR) buttons may be worn on the left lapel of civilian clothes except civilian evening dress. Buttons manufactured with prong and clutch fasteners may also be worn as tie-tacks.

Finally, Commandant Instruction (COMDTINST) M1020.6G, Table 3.G.1, permits U.S. Coast Guard personnel to wear miniature medals with civilian formal or evening dress (white tie). Individuals should wear their medals in the same manner as prescribed for the Formal Dress uniform, and with civilian dinner dress (black tie), in the same manner as prescribed for Dinner Dress uniforms. Per the Instruction, miniature ribbon replicas should be worn on the left lapel of other civilian clothes.

Therefore, I hope this information provides a clear answer to your constituent's question. Honorably discharged and retired military members may- continue to wear the medals they have earned on appropriate civilian clothing, and at appropriate settings, based on their Service-specific regulations. Thank you for your support of the Department and all Service members who proudly wear the unifoiui.
Sincerely,

Paul E. Kantwill, Colonel, U.S. Army Director, Office of Legal Policy"

[Reiver]

Yes, different services have different regs.

The Army regs. reference an appropriate military occasion/observance as does the AF. I doubt Highland Games meet that standard.

It appears the Navy/USMC has the most lenient system leaving it up to the individual.
However, it seems to also state that the ribbons/medals worn on casual dress (less than Tux) are to be miniature metal type/rosette form....not full ribbon bars or full sized decorations as I see in the SAMS org.

So that reg. actually says....no to the presently noted displays of awards.

[Arnot]

Yes, different services have different regs.

The Army regs. reference an appropriate military occasion/observance as does the AF. I doubt Highland Games meet that standard.

It appears the Navy/USMC has the most lenient system leaving it up to the individual.
However, it seems to also state that the ribbons/medals worn on casual dress (less than Tux) are to be miniature metal type/rosette form....not full ribbon bars or full sized decorations as I see in the SAMS org.

So that reg. actually says....no to the presently noted displays of awards.

The way that the COL explains the Army regulation in Post #44 slightly changes the meaning of what is actually written in the regulation. Below is the information copied from the regulation and pasted in here.

Retired personnel and former members of the Army (as described above) may wear all categories of medals described in this regulation on appropriate civilian clothing. This includes clothes designed for veteran and patriotic organizations on Veteran’s Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature.

The "military nature" seems to apply to the "social functions", but not the "formal occasions of ceremony". Going by what is written and not someone's interpretation or opinion, it seems to me to be two types of occasion.

Also, whatever one may think about the SAMS uniform, it would seem to be covered by the following taken from AR 670-1:

30–8. Wear of a uniform similar to the Army uniform
a. A person for whom one of the following uniforms is prescribed may wear the uniform, provided it includes
distinctive insignia prescribed by the Secretary of the Army to distinguish it from the U.S. Army uniform.
(1) Instructors or members of an organized cadet corps at a state university, college, or public high school that has a
regular course of military instruction will wear the uniform prescribed by the academic organization.
(2) Instructors or members of an organized cadet corps at an educational institution that has a regular course of
military instruction in military science with an Army instructor, will wear the uniform prescribed by the academic
organization.
(3) When authorized by regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Army, members of a military society
composed of persons discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the U.S. Army may wear the uniform
prescribed by the military society.

[Reiver]

Arnot,
That does appear to cover it....it is a Military Society.

My personal opinion stands as stated.

[Arnot]

My personal opinion stands as stated.

That's okay, I would not have expected otherwise and you are entitled. My only goal was to be sure that the reg was quoted correctly. One could fill volumes with regulations incorrectly quoted. That's what I observed anyway.

[Benning Boy]

In reference to the bold faced portion of Reiver's post the key words are, "When authorized by regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Army ... ." Is SAMS authorized by prescribed regulation? I've not found such authorization.


Also, the COL Kantwell letter leaves something unsaid. The wear of the uniform by former members of the Army must be in accordance with AR 670-1, as he pointed out, but that regulation says the uniform may be worn only by those who meet the standards of appearance for active service members. Scruffy, bearded long hairs aren't authorized to wear the uniform, which leaves me, a retiree, out.

Of course, wearing the uniform at Scottish functions probably isn't an issue here.

Note also for former members of the Army wear of medals is only authorized for Veterans day, Memorial Day and Armed Forces day -- or functions of a military nature. So, there are only three authorized for sure days, and some number of optional days. Wearing decorations at highland games probably falls into a gray area (dark gray to my mind.) Can highland games and other kilting events be of a military nature? To each his own, but not for me.

The Army is the senior service, the more mature service, and I abide by its regulations. The more junior, and more impetuous services may do as they like, as juniors are wont to do. The USMC, Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, are a prime example of that. They remain forever children, and reckless in their ways.

Consider the number of former USMC members who wear there EGA as a kilt pin, placing the insignia of their service lower than their rectums. How's that for respect?

[Reiver]

I was going to ask that question, authorization of Military Orgs., but figured my position was already out there.
I suspect that blurb was/is to cover the VFW, A Legion (Congressionally authorized) etc. The SAMS may be Nationally reg. by the DoD/SecDef but who knows.
As far as I can tell it was incorporated in N Carolina only and has a non profit IRS status....no National authorization of any kind that I can find so I doubt the above highlighted area applies as to Vet.Mil.Orgs.

I'm not sure that the SecDef. or DoD. would get into the business of accrediting Vet organizations along the lines of ethnicity alone. I know this is a well meaning group but you can see the pitfalls of travelling down that road. In service you are all green or blue.

Luckily there are no Vet Military Organization swim teams....the full medals would look different on their swim suits.