Weathered Tartans

[OC Richard]

should we include the dubious works of the Allen brothers in the same "box" as Outlander as well? I think probably we should.

As you know it annoys me to see the Allen Brothers creations being treated like ancient authentic traditional tartans.

From the standpoint of aesthetics and design most of their tartans are clumsy and simpleminded.

From the standpoint of tartan history their designs are entirely wrongheaded, as they believed that in ancient times tartan functioned as heraldry, the patterns being simple and garish so as to be easily identified on the battlefield.

The Vestiarium Scoticum was a deliberate hoax, I don't think any doubt remains.

Outlander would be better to say "we chose the earth-toned tartan we were shown because it fit with the show's palette as established by the Art Director" rather than claim that those colours (Dalgliesh Reproduction Colours) represent authentic 18h century tartan. Makes me almost think that the Outlander people read, and believed, the Dalgliesh story.

[Jock Scot]

As you know it annoys me to see the Allen Brothers creations being treated like ancient authentic traditional tartans.

From the standpoint of aesthetics and design most of their tartans are clumsy and simpleminded.

From the standpoint of tartan history their designs are entirely wrongheaded, as they believed that in ancient times tartan functioned as heraldry, the patterns being simple and garish so as to be easily identified on the battlefield.

The Vestiarium Scoticum was a deliberate hoax, I don't think any doubt remains.

Outlander would be better to say "we chose the earth-toned tartan we were shown because it fit with the show's palette as established by the Art Director" rather than claim that those colours (Dalgliesh Reproduction Colours) represent authentic 18h century tartan. Makes me almost think that the Outlander people read, and believed, the Dalgliesh story.

When seen through my non artistic eye and with my non technical perspective I am quite happy to accept the Allen brothers' tartans for what they are. When all said and done a whole industry has been mainly built around them and I doubt that the past Clan Chiefs or their present day Clansmen were/are that bothered either. Those tartans were indeed a hoax when they were introduced and we should be aware of that ------and some of us are-------but getting anxious about it now is rather late in the day and it is not going to change anything.

[figheadair]

When seen through my non artistic eye and with my non technical perspective I am quite happy to accept the Allen brothers' tartans for what they are. When all said and done a whole industry has been mainly built around them and I doubt that the past Clan Chiefs or their present day Clansmen were/are that bothered either. Those tartans were indeed a hoax when they were introduced and we should be aware of that ------and some of us are-------but getting anxious about it now is rather late in the day and it is not going to change anything.

Actually, the Allan brother pale when compared to Wilsons of Bannockburn's influence on clan tartans.

[Jock Scot]

Actually, the Allan brother pale when compared to Wilsons of Bannockburn's influence on clan tartans.

Gosh! I had no idea!

Could you give some examples please?

[Tobus]

Outlander would be better to say "we chose the earth-toned tartan we were shown because it fit with the show's palette as established by the Art Director" rather than claim that those colours (Dalgliesh Reproduction Colours) represent authentic 18h century tartan. Makes me almost think that the Outlander people read, and believed, the Dalgliesh story.

Actually, if you will recall, Terry Dresbach (the costume designer for Outlander) addressed this very issue here on XMTS in 2014. Her responses are in this thread (specifically posts #27 and #84). They chose the earth-tone tartans because the director wanted them to appear that way and to specifically avoid modern clan tartans. He also wanted the only red in the show to be on the English. From her responses, I don't get any sense that they were somehow fooled into believing that Reproduction colours were accurate for the time. It was simply an artistic choice for the show.

[figheadair]

Gosh! I had no idea!

Could you give some examples please?

Gosh, where to start!

Think of any Highland clan and Wilsons were probably there first. In a couple of cases, Fraser for example, the VS sett surplanted the older tartan but for the most part the VS is the source of the older tartans for Lowland names.

Back to Wilsons, and it needs to be borne in mind that a number of what are now clan tartans started life as the numbered patterns. An incomplete list of what are now clan tartans that own their origin to Wilsons are:

Austin (aka Keith, Marshall)
Bruce of Kinnaird, originally Pattern No75)
Buchanan
Cameron of Lochiel
Campbell of Breadalbane (originally Pattern No64/2 or Abercrombie with Yellow)
Campbell of Cawdor (originally Pattern No230 or Argyle)
Chisholm
Douglas (originally Pattern No148)
Drummond (aka Grant and which started life as 'New Bruce')
Farquharson
Forbes
Fraser of Lovat (originally just Fraser)
Graham of Menteith (originally Pattern No150 or Coburg)
Graham of Montrose (originally Pattern No64 or Abercrombie)
Gunn
Hay (originally Leith)
Logan (aka Skene)
MacAlistair
MacDonald
MacDonald of Clanranald
MacDonald of Glengarry
MacDuff
MacFarlane
MacGregor
MacKay
MacKinnon
MacKintosh
MacLachlan
MacLaren (originally Pattern No23 or Regent)
MacLaine (of Lochbuie)
MacLean (of Duart)
MacNab
MacNeil
MacPherson (originally Pattern No43, Caledonia or Kidd)
MacRae
Menzies
Munro (originally Locheil)
Ross
Wilson

There are more.......

[figheadair]

Actually, if you will recall, Terry Dresbach (the costume designer for Outlander) addressed this very issue here on XMTS in 2014. Her responses are in this thread (specifically posts #27 and #84). They chose the earth-tone tartans because the director wanted them to appear that way and to specifically avoid modern clan tartans. He also wanted the only red in the show to be on the English. From her responses, I don't get any sense that they were somehow fooled into believing that Reproduction colours were accurate for the time. It was simply an artistic choice for the show.

I'm reminded of helping with the tartan tartan advice for the film Rob Roy.

Costume Designer - We'd like to use some traditional tartans.

Me - Great, I have several 18th century specimens, including one traditionally associated with the MacGregors (see MacGregor of Glengyle).

Costume Designer - That's great but we can't use that.

Me - Why so, it's an original tartan of the period and asscoated with the MacGregors to boot.

Costume Designer - The director won't accept Liam Neeson in pink.

True story

[Jock Scot]

Ah yes of course! Thank you Peter for reminding me of that. It really does illustrate the futility, from an everyday point of view, of getting wound up about who designed a particular Clan tartan and when. Or, worrying about the technical niceties when they are looked at through modern eyes. They are what they are.

[OC Richard]

Actually, the Allan brother pale when compared to Wilsons of Bannockburn's influence on clan tartans.

That I don't doubt. I'll happily take the Wilson's designs, being that they were Scottish weavers, and reject the Allen brothers' designs, because they were neither.

[OC Richard]

Terry Dresbach (the costume designer for Outlander) addressed this very issue here...They chose the earth-tone tartans because the director wanted them to appear that way and to specifically avoid modern clan tartans.

Yes as I was alluding to a film/show has an Art Director and an important decision they (working in discussion with the Director) have to make is the palette of the show.

One might not realise that every film/show has a palette. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it isn't. Like everything in filmmaking they say that if the audience notices it, it's not doing its job properly! (Things like camera angles, cuts, lighting, score, etc should all serve the story and not be noticed.)

My wife and I were watching The English Game and in one scene showing a group of townspeople my wife said "does everybody have to wear only brown?"

Outlander is similar, note the overwhelmingly earthtoned look of the Highlanders (not just the costumes but the sets etc).

You mentioned the English in red, and by the way that's something that often annoys me about films showing Redcoat soldiers, the way modern costumers put them in a cool red, a red leaning towards purple, almost crimson, rather than the warm red of British uniforms. It's because the films' palettes dictate earthy muted colours, they can't have anything too bright.