Origins of the kilt, is it Celtic or not?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Another reminder: While it may be true that Gaels in the 5th and 6th centuries wore the leine and brat, and Gaelic in the 15th and 16th centuries also wore the leine and brat, it does not necessarily follow that they were the same garments.

"Leine" is simply Gaelic for "shirt" and a brat is just a cloak or mantle. These can take many forms, and indeed they did over the centuries.

Think of it this way. American men today wear shirts and pants. Men 300 years ago in colonial America wore shirts and pants. Think how different our fashions are from just 300 years ago. Now imagine 1000 years back. :-)

Aye,
M

[Archangel]

As an historian (I wasn't always a saddler) with a close interest in the rise and fall of Dal Riada, and a fan of Kenneth Bannerman, a 1,400 year time frame doesn't seem that long (but then, naturally, historians tend to live in the past - it can be really fascinating), and all of it has contributed to who and where we are today. Even that in the 5th and 6th Centuries our ancestors wore the leine and brat contributed to our present condition. But, perhaps Matthew's rebuke is appropriate if we're drifting too far "off topic".

Gotta challenge that 1400 years isn't that long. I'll grant you it's not long geoligically but to say 606AD was recent historically is odd.

Note to those historians: Matt has defined "kilt", which part of the "Celtic" people applies to his definition. Having filled those parts of the equation, he can then define "origin". That is how a historian does it. Now the rest of the academics have a frames of reference to discuss develop. It's not a word game: it's an essential part of the communication process to determine that we are all talking about the same thing.

[Kilts_Knave]

That is certainly possible, and has been discussed before.

There goes my ethnomusicology thesis down the drain!

[An t-Ileach]

Archangel, if one is an historian of the early middle ages, then you're reading literature relating to that period - in various languages if you can - and if you're reading original source material, then (relating to the "Celtic fringe") it's in Old Welsh, Old Irish and Latin. You get kind of drawn in, and the events seem very close to you.

The definitions thing is not in dispute - I agree with Matt about the kilt, always have. Personally, I don't think that the leine and brat are the progenitors of the garment. I was just throwing up suggestions. Leine is still the Gaelic for "shirt", and nobody is suggesting that a leine bought from Jenner's, Marks and Spencer, or wherever is the same as the garment depicted on the standing stones in style. Brat just means a "cover", not necessarily a cloak as portrayed in the etchings of the Old Irish: the phrase cuir brat air... means "to coat" (as with paint, for example).

But I digress...

[Archangel]

Archangel, if one is an historian of the early middle ages, then you're reading literature relating to that period - in various languages if you can - and if you're reading original source material, then (relating to the "Celtic fringe") it's in Old Welsh, Old Irish and Latin. You get kind of drawn in, and the events seem very close to you.

The definitions thing is not in dispute - I agree with Matt about the kilt, always have. Personally, I don't think that the leine and brat are the progenitors of the garment. I was just throwing up suggestions. Leine is still the Gaelic for "shirt", and nobody is suggesting that a leine bought from Jenner's, Marks and Spencer, or wherever is the same as the garment depicted on the standing stones in style. Brat just means a "cover", not necessarily a cloak as portrayed in the etchings of the Old Irish: the phrase cuir brat air... means "to coat" (as with paint, for example).

But I digress...

okay, that's clearer. I just needed more context and I get it now.
I didn't think you were disputing about definitions, I tagged that on because i was glad to see that, finally, we had something (cyber) tangible to talk about. Of course, now that we're there, (as, I believe, Dread pointed out in the second or third post) we find that it is indeed old ground. Old ground with an odd smell that I'm glad the admin put a stop to.