A question on ethics...

[BLAZN]

I was wondering when we'd hear back from you, Blazn. Time zones, huh?

Time zones and the fact that i spent the whole day directing the movers. Today and tomorrow are my pack out days. On Thursday, almost all my family's belongings will be on their way to Maine.

What I don't care for about that Saltire kilt is that there is a big Scottish flag on your bum. It is cool at first blush, but upon reflection I find it tacky. The Union Kilts with flags on their aprons (see the UK home page), while not remotely my thing, at least don't put the flag on your bum. I just got my Xmarks t-shirt today, and the Saltire-based logo is nowhere near my rump. I would have been happier without the big logo on the back, but it's just a t-shirt, not a Scottish national symbol in the way a kilt is.

I'm seeing the point. In all honesty, I would never actually buy the Saltire tartan kilt at all... I simply couldn't justify to myself, or the bride unit, the $800 it would cost. Even in the most formal setting... it would be somewhat out of place.

Having said that, if you want one, go get it! Wear it proudly. And if I meet you while you're wearing it, I'll buy you a beer. A good Canadian beer at that!

Whatever I decide to wear, as far as a tartan is concerned, i will certainly wear it with pride.
As for the beer... I'm not one for the beer, but I'll allow you to hook me up with a fine hard cider.

But if you are open to the Saltire, why not go after one of the generic Scottish tartans? Or, as Moosehead points out, one of the generic Irish ones? Any Welsh in you? Some of the new Welsh tartans are spectacular.

Now, the Xmarks tartan is not cheap, but right now there is a window open for ordering three yards before run 2b. PM Steve if interested.

Being named Stewart, born in Nova Scotia, living in British Columbia, Canada, with a mother named Davies, and married to a girl out of Cork, I have claim to about a hundred distinct tartans. So while I can sympathise, I will never share your problem. At least you have a navy tartan. AFAIK, there is no Canadian one for me.

(BTW, I just looked up saltire in the Wikipedia and learned that the word refers to the big X and not specifically to the Scottish flag).[/QUOTE]

[cormacmacguardhe]

Many interesting viewpoints to say the least. My .02 for what it's worth. I came to kilt wearing because of my scottish heritage, my maternal grandmother was from Scotland, born in Renfrewshire. That being said I continue to wear the kilt as often as possible due to comfort. At this point in time I own two kilts, one a Sportkilt in Royal Stewart, the other is a SWK Nightstalker Tartan. In the future I hope to purchase one in Clan MacQuarrie Tartan, which is the one to which I am "entitled". I will probably purchase others in tartans which I find I like or to which I feel some kind of connection. The USMC tartan would be one to honor my brother who served in Korea. Many purists would say that I should only wear kilts in tartans and only those to which I am connected, I believe that wearing kilts is, for me at least, honoring a heritage. This heritage can be honored by all manner of kilts, traditional as well as modern.
I have no problem with traditionalists, they believe what they believe, and are entitled to that belief. But, I do not feel the same way. Forcing me to adhere to their beliefs, is like forcing a Baptist to go to Mass. The world is a large and diverse place. We all need to allow the others, whoever they may be, to express their point of view. As long as they do not infringe on my expression, I have no right to infringe on theirs.

[Pour1Malt]

it is VERY common in Scotland fur men tae lend their kilts tae friends an family... for special events like weddings....

which aften puts men in tartans that arr no "their own"

ai ha seen a cousin o mine wear Buchanan, Forbes, Flower of Scotland, Robertson, Anderson, and Douglas.... at assorted parties an weddings.... ai ha never seen anywan in Scotland gie anywan trouble aboot wearing somewan elses tartan...

[Valencian Kilted]

Gents,



Fact is that most 'real' Scotsmen here in the States, like my in-law, get their kilts from US companies just like most of us. Why, because they are cheaper, more practical, easier and faster to get, more comfortable, etc..... the kilt is no longer Scotish, gentlemen, it is American. The whole kilt get-up may still be Scotish, but the kilt itself, no, it's bigger than Scotland now ... it's American.

Chris Webb

.... Chris,... if the kilt was an american garment, be sure that here's an european spaniard that would not be interested in it... and please,... kilt or not kilt... scottish or not,... U CAN'T SAY THAT IT'S BIGGER THAN SCOTLAND BECAUSE IT'S AMERICAN!... from my point of view results offensive that something becomes greater just for the simple fact of being "american". I'll not start a new "Spanish War" here mainly because once again Spain would fight in inferiority, but please,... show some respect to other places, regions and traditions. America is not for all of us the "navel of the world".

U say "if it's american it's better"... but for me,... the key point for kilting is the spirit of the people who gave it the character... and those were the highlanders... from Auld Alba. If I have an interest for an american garment I'll go for a pair of Levi's, but I won't be inspired by the american spirit of the kilt. I'll take out my hat on how the americans have defended that heritage and even have increased it, but if they did so,... it was because of their heritage and the link to their european roots in one sense or another.

If you take out the tradition to the kilt... it simply becomes an unbifurcated garment...but for me that has the same power of attraction than a flowered sarong... none if I am out of the beach on a tropical area, and even that I'd prefer to wear shorts full of pockets before than a flowered sarong! ... but of course, this is just my taste, guys, and as a matter of taste, whatever u choose will be respected from this side of the ocean ;)

¡Salud!

T O N O

[Jerry]

Personally, I wear tartans to which I have some connection. My father's family are McNeills from County Tyrone Northern Ireland, and according to the "Irish American Society" are really Scots. McNeill is listed as a variation of Macneil and thus I wear the Macneil tartan. My mother's family are Gordons so I also have a kilt in that tartan. I also feel I have the right to wear the County Tyrone tartan, any of the Ulster tartans, the Irish National, the US Navy tartan (I'm a Navy verteran) as well an any of the district tartans.

That said, it is just my personal choice. Most clans do not care if you wear their tartan. I have actually sent emails to a couple of cheifs to ask. Many clans are willing to accept members who don't actually bear their clan name. It is merely a matter of accepting the clan '"ideals" and swearing allegience to the cheif. Check out the following link:

http://www.baronage.co.uk/jag-ht/jag007.html

[davedove]

Where is it listed? I did my search on the House of Tartan web site. Perhaps I should have found something more exhaustive.

Check out the Scottish Tartans Authority:

http://www.tartansauthority.com

Check all the tartans; you may find some others you like.

[Pour1Malt]

.... Chris,... if the kilt was an american garment, be sure that here's an european spaniard that would not be interested in it... and please,... kilt or not kilt... scottish or not,... U CAN'T SAY THAT IT'S BIGGER THAN SCOTLAND BECAUSE IT'S AMERICAN!... from my point of view results offensive that something becomes greater just for the simple fact of being "american". I'll not start a new "Spanish War" here mainly because once again Spain would fight in inferiority, but please,... show some respect to other places, regions and traditions. America is not for all of us the "navel of the world".

U say "if it's american it's better"... but for me,... the key point for kilting is the spirit of the people who gave it the character... and those were the highlanders... from Auld Alba. If I have an interest for an american garment I'll go for a pair of Levi's, but I won't be inspired by the american spirit of the kilt. I'll take out my hat on how the americans have defended that heritage and even have increased it, but if they did so,... it was because of their heritage and the link to their european roots in one sense or another.

If you take out the tradition to the kilt... it simply becomes an unbifurcated garment...but for me that has the same power of attraction than a flowered sarong... none if I am out of the beach on a tropical area, and even that I'd prefer to wear shorts full of pockets before than a flowered sarong! ... but of course, this is just my taste, guys, and as a matter of taste, whatever u choose will be respected from this side of the ocean ;)

¡Salud!

T O N O

very guid Tono... an thank you for that....

Chris- ai'm hopin ya were no trying tae be insulting tae Scotland an Scots, but whit ya said is insulting an quite disrespectful...

if you arr wan o the small percentage o 'mericans wi' a passport- please visit Scotland sometime (an Spain, Italy, France, and so on....) there is a very large world out there with very impressive histories and cultures....

[Moosehead]

This, however opens up a question as to whether I belong to any of the septs mentioned on the Clan Cian web site. I did visit it, but I'm not sure if the Carroll I can claim is the one in question.

Thats what geneological research is all about. :rolleyes: If she is a Carroll, its pretty much 100% that she is Irish.

[macwilkin]

Thats what geneological research is all about. :rolleyes: If she is a Carroll, its pretty much 100% that she is Irish.

Many clan societies have volunteer genealogists that will assist members with their research. Some societies are fairly strict in regards to pedigree charts and membership requirements, but most are not.

In regards to the Hamilton's, here is the Clan Hamilton Society's web site:

http://clanhamilton.acomhosting.com/

Cheers,

Todd

[Paco500]

I do hope the intercontinental sniping will stop quickly.