St George`s day

[thanmuwa]

Just a couple of points:

1. The harp is used as a symbol in Ulster, usually with a crown -- if you look at the regimental badge of the Royal Irish Regiment and its "ancestors", you will see a number of regiments (including the Royal Irish Rifles & Rangers, the Ulster Defence Regiment and the old RUC) use the "crown and harp" badge, so your statement that the harp is not a symbol of NI/Ulster is incorrect.

Only by default, because little or no change was made when Ireland withdrew from the Union. The harp represented Ireland, it was left unchanged on the flags and trappings when (part of) Ireland gained it's freedom, instead of choosing a more appropriate symbol for the retained portion of Ulster. Does the Harp represent a continuing claim? No idea, and I care even less, but thence the controversy.

2. A number of countries have flags that may be flown by government/military personnel only; for example, only recently in the last decade did the Republic of India allow its citizens to fly the Indian flag. Many countries have two versions of the flag, one for general use and a "state" or "war" flag.

Is the Union Flag one of those? I am confused as to the actual status of the Union Flag. Is it the Flag of the UK? Or is it solely a naval flag? (Why does it have a naval name (Union Jack) and a dry land name (Union Flag) then?) And if it is not the flag of the country, what is? And why is it flown at all the embassies and so on? I had some idea about it before this thread, and now I am very confused!

3. The Cross of St. Patrick is gaining popularity, especially among loyalists in Ulster and among those in the Republic who favour increased ties with the UK. For example, the Reform Movement uses the Cross of St. Patrick:

http://www.reform.org/

Well, I can't speak for loyalists in Northern Ireland, (but I can see how it would be popular, it is visually similar to the flag of the previous Northern Ireland Government) but to use the phrase "gaining popularity" is a bit grandiose for the tiny number of Quislings in the Reform "Movement". For example, it advocates Ireland losing it's neutrality, which is so far out of touch with what Irish people actually want (we are proud of our Neutral stance) that he may as well be talking about Taiwan.

(1) Perhaps you missed the history bit: until 1921 the flag of Ireland was the St. Patrick's cross. After independence the tricolour was adopted as the the governmental and military flag.

The evidence for the use of St Patricks flag as the flag of Ireland is slim. It arguably appeared about 20 years before the act of Union (and then obviously disappeared again, subsumed into the Union Flag). I do like this version of the St Patrick cross (apparently more traditional, but I can't comment on the veracity of that). The St Patrick Cross Flag is being romanticised and revisionism is striking in the constant search for a neutral flag for all of Ireland, but I am unconvinced it was ever in reality a common flag of Ireland. Here's an idea, how about a flag with green to represent nationalists, orange to represent unionists, with white in the middle to symbolise peace between them? Oh, that one has been done, has it?

(2) At no time did I suggest that the Irish tricolour had anything to do with the UK, so I fail to see the point of your comment.

You wrote

For purposes of maritime convenience these three flags were combined into a single "navy" flag. End of message and get over it.
Englishmen still have a flag (cross of St. George); Scotsmen still have a flag (cross of St. Andrew); Irish men still have a flag (cross of St. Patrick-- the tricolour is a "governmental and naval" flag);

In the middle of talking about UK flags you flung in a reference to the tricolour. The implication is that the tricolour has something to do with your point about UK flags. At the very least it lacked clarity. Hence the question. And I am asking questions, not trying to make a point, because you seem to know your stuff and I am interested to find out.

What has the modern day navy or merchant maritime presence of Ireland got to do with the Union Flag?

Nothing. Go back and re-read what I wrote.

Again, what you wrote lacked clarity. Hence my asking questions.

I was being sarcastic. You are being literal.

Perhaps you missed my acknowledgement of your sarcasm? When I wrote "Some hope" it was intended to be accompanied with a snort of laughter at your statement . I guess it didn't translate.

Yeah... except the country couldn't afford the court costs.

A problem common to most countries these days. I am sure a nice public-spirited Dublin barrister could be convinced to provide his services for free for his country.
(Yes, that was sarcasm too, lowest form of wit and all that)

[macwilkin]

post deleted after reading Trefor's comments. Apologies for the OT posts.

TJW

[McClef]

I fear that this thread has been somewhat hijacked in that it was originally meant to be a place for discussing the celebrations of St George's Day.

Perhaps many of these discussions would be better off in the Tartans and Heraldry section as we are shooting from Scotland to Wales to Ireland and much of it is regarding flags etc.

[skauwt]

I fear that this thread has been somewhat hijacked in that it was originally meant to be a place for discussing the celebrations of St George's Day.

Perhaps many of these discussions would be better off in the Tartans and Heraldry section as we are shooting from Scotland to Wales to Ireland and much of it is regarding flags etc.

it was meant to be a "hi neighbour all the best on your national day" post nothing to do with discussions of any nature just as if i was a member on st Patrick's day or st Andrews day or st Davids day
id have said the same thing instead its became a crazy debate of flags sovereignty and all sorts and folk wonder why wars happen

[O'Callaghan]

it was meant to be a "hi neighbour all the best on your national day" post nothing to do with discussions of any nature just as if i was a member on st Patrick's day or st Andrews day or st Davids day
id have said the same thing instead its became a crazy debate of flags sovereignty and all sorts and folk wonder why wars happen

Indeed, and your original post was well taken.

Just to avoid confusion, I am English, of Irish descent, and live in America. That's Southern England, Southern Ireland, and South of the Mason-Dixon line, LOL! If nothing else, no-one can ever dispute that I am Southern. I use my Irish clan as a user name for reasons that should be obvious.

I am happy to read such posts on either St. Patrick's or St. George's Day, and to wish others well on any of their national days.

At least wars on the Internet don't (usually) involve fatalities.

[Barry]

This has been a most interesting (if heated) thread.

One thing saddens me : when I grew up I lived in a country called Great Britain and i was naturally, British. Now somewhere along the last 10 or 20 years my country has become "The United Kingdom" or just plain UK. Now I know that the fully name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" which is a real mouthful, but calling us the UK just seems wrong. No one calls Germany just "The Federal Republic" for example, and one cannot be UKish, only British.
We still have GB on our international car identities, have GBR at Olympic events and so on but internet URLs have .co.uk and not .co.gb ( apparently some did exist but the co.uk appellation is now the standard).

So me, I still live in Britain, composed as it is of our 4 nations.May we all live in peaceful co-existence ( except for the Rugby!) and fly the British Flag!

Maybe we should let the Scots, Welsh and Irish go their separate ways. We could then be just good old England (Kingdom of) with a nice easy flag and call ourselves English (hurrah)

[Good Egg]

This has been a most interesting (if heated) thread.

One thing saddens me : when I grew up I lived in a country called Great Britain and i was naturally, British. Now somewhere along the last 10 or 20 years my country has become "The United Kingdom" or just plain UK. Now I know that the fully name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" which is a real mouthful, but calling us the UK just seems wrong. No one calls Germany just "The Federal Republic" for example, and one cannot be UKish, only British.
We still have GB on our international car identities, have GBR at Olympic events and so on but internet URLs have .co.uk and not .co.gb ( apparently some did exist but the co.uk appellation is now the standard).

So me, I still live in Britain, composed as it is of our 4 nations.May we all live in peaceful co-existence ( except for the Rugby!) and fly the British Flag!

Maybe we should let the Scots, Welsh and Irish go their separate ways. We could then be just good old England (Kingdom of) with a nice easy flag and call ourselves English (hurrah)

I would not worry about it if I were you. You actually live in Europe. Pretty soon it will be illegal to describe yourself as British, Scots, English, Irish, Welsh because of the racist overtones. Oh and you certainly won't be allowed to express any incorrect views on the internet.

Whether we are allowed to wear kilts or not will depend on whether we can pass ourselves off as an oppressed minority or not. I'm betting not.

[Jock Scot]

This has been a most interesting (if heated) thread.

One thing saddens me : when I grew up I lived in a country called Great Britain and i was naturally, British. Now somewhere along the last 10 or 20 years my country has become "The United Kingdom" or just plain UK. Now I know that the fully name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" which is a real mouthful, but calling us the UK just seems wrong. No one calls Germany just "The Federal Republic" for example, and one cannot be UKish, only British.
We still have GB on our international car identities, have GBR at Olympic events and so on but internet URLs have .co.uk and not .co.gb ( apparently some did exist but the co.uk appellation is now the standard).

So me, I still live in Britain, composed as it is of our 4 nations.May we all live in peaceful co-existence ( except for the Rugby!) and fly the British Flag!

Maybe we should let the Scots, Welsh and Irish go their separate ways. We could then be just good old England (Kingdom of) with a nice easy flag and call ourselves English (hurrah)

I am happy to have been British(Scots department) for all of my life, The Union flag is is fine for me. I know others feel that the Scots,Welsh,English,Nothern Irish,Manx and any other that I should have included are far more important and that is fine. For me, that word "UNITED" is the one that matters.

[English Bloke]

I'd like to thank the Moderators for letting this one run. Wildly off thread though it is, it's been a fascinating read.

[KFCarter]

I'd like to thank the Moderators for letting this one run. Wildly off thread though it is, it's been a fascinating read.

I'd like to second that. I realize now the superficial nature of what little I knew about these issues. It was exactly that: fascinating.