Irish wore kilts?

[Jon1975]

There's nothing clear about it. Do you have a link to this picture? From what I understand there is no strong evidence of a distinctly Irish bagpipe at all. What gets posited as pictorial evidence is usually wishful thinking and a bit of a stretch.

The modern "Irish War Pipe" is a GHB with a drone removed. Its genesis appears to be Irish regiments in the British Army. There's nothing historical or ancient about it (and today's Irish regiments in the British Army play the GHB).

Here are some links: It also looks like the Irish are wearing kilts, notice how they are gathered about the waist....

http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgalle...bg0061_jpg.htm

http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgalle...bg0054_jpg.htm

[Nick the DSM]

Its the leine that the Irish are wearing not a kilt.

[Swampthing]

When talking about pipes, it should be stated what type it is.
Bagpipes may just be one of the earliest instruments ever made, but definitely not the Great Highland Bagpipes.
Not the Irish, nor the Scots invented bagpipes, and they may have very well obtained them from different sources.

Pipes are not kilts anyway, so I think I'll be getting back on track.

[PGH]

Here are some links: It also looks like the Irish are wearing kilts, notice how they are gathered about the waist....

http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgalle...bg0061_jpg.htm

http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgalle...bg0054_jpg.htm

The second one looks like an English bagpipe.

[tulloch]

I was hoping you would! I was just about to call you over Thanks for the information, I do love a good history lesson!

I second that! This is very interesting. Matt, you have a great wealth of knowledge to share. What do you think of the pics? (Not the Picts, the pictures, mind you!)

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I second that! This is very interesting. Matt, you have a great wealth of knowledge to share. What do you think of the pics? (Not the Picts, the pictures, mind you!)

Are you referring to the images from Derricke's Image of Ireland?

They bear superficial resemblance to the modern Scottish kilt, and there have been many that have used this, or similar sources, to suggest the early use of the kilt in Ireland. But in fact what these images depict is the pleated skirts of the long Irish leine or shirt.

The leinte were worn long, often knee length, and were very full garments. You can read about them in my article, here:
http://albanach.org/leine.html

Remember, folks, just because something looks kind of like a modern kilt in an old woodcut or stone carving doesn't mean that it is a direct historical predecessor of the kilt -- or really anything like a kilt at all. In this case what we are looking at is actually the bottom part of a shirt, not a kilt. Other articles of clothing that have been misrepresented as kilts include actons, the padded and quilted armor worn by medieval soldiers. The vertical lines depicting the quilting often get mistaken for pleats, and because the actons were often knee length.... well, you can guess what happens.

[O'Callaghan]

There's nothing clear about it. Do you have a link to this picture? From what I understand there is no strong evidence of a distinctly Irish bagpipe at all. What gets posited as pictorial evidence is usually wishful thinking and a bit of a stretch.

The modern "Irish War Pipe" is a GHB with a drone removed. Its genesis appears to be Irish regiments in the British Army. There's nothing historical or ancient about it (and today's Irish regiments in the British Army play the GHB).

You are quite wrong. Bagpipes were banned in Ireland by the statute of Kilkenny in the 14th century. Of course, to revive them after half a millenium they removed a drone from the Scots version, how else could they have re-created them? This may even mean that they could resemble the Scots ones more than the original instrument. That doesn't change the fact that the modern Scots ones began as Irish ones with a drone added.

I regret bringing up the subject of bagpipes in an Irish kilt thread, but it is clear that the early migration was from Ireland to Scotland, not the other way around, hence a lot of what you think of as Scottish culture began as Irish, but was altered over time.

Please note though, that I never said that bagpipes originated in Ireland. The two-drone version that the Irish played before the ban was based on even older pipes with a single bass drone pointing downwards, which can still be found in Eastern Europe, but which are believed to have originated somewhere in the Middle East.

ETA: Tartan also predates migration to Ireland from mainland Europe. I am not saying these things originated in Ireland, merely that the Scots got them from the Irish.

[O'Callaghan]

That one was explained to me 'as matter of fact' one day.

The Brittish used a local source to get more kilts while they occupied India. When they left, there were generations of kiltmakers that just kept on going. Served them quite well at that I bet.

That seems to be approximately right. There is not necessarily complete continuity, but many Pakistani kiltmakers today do claim family descent from those who made kilts for the British Raj (Pakistan was of course part of India in those days). Interestingly, all the Pakistani kiltmakers today appear to be located in Sialkot, which is just on the Pakistani side of the border with India in the divided province of the Punjab. Probably being all in one town has helped to preserve the skills, as it is easier for someone to set up a business where there is a skilled pool of labour.

By some accounts there are as many as 200 separate businesses in Sialkot making kilts, many of whom make bagpipes as well (you can find on here many threads denigrating their bagpipes, but it seems to come down to them sticking to rosewood chanters while the Scots have switched to endangered African hardwoods).

[macwilkin]

That seems to be approximately right. There is not necessarily complete continuity, but many Pakistani kiltmakers today do claim family descent from those who made kilts for the British Raj (Pakistan was of course part of India in those days). Interestingly, all the Pakistani kiltmakers today appear to be located in Sialkot, which is just on the Pakistani side of the border with India in the divided province of the Punjab. Probably being all in one town has helped to preserve the skills, as it is easier for someone to set up a business where there is a skilled pool of labour.

By some accounts there are as many as 200 separate businesses in Sialkot making kilts, many of whom make bagpipes as well (you can find on here many threads denigrating their bagpipes, but it seems to come down to them sticking to rosewood chanters while the Scots have switched to endangered African hardwoods).

I would love to see a source on this that government issue kilts were made "in country" in the Raj ; as a resident of Missouri, you'll have to "show-me".

T.

[O'Callaghan]

I would love to see a source on this that government issue kilts were made "in country" in the Raj ; as a resident of Missouri, you'll have to "show-me".

T.

All I could show you is what the kiltmakers themselves say, and I would have to find it first. Nonetheless, they often do claim that their fathers or more likely grandfathers owned similar concerns that made kilts and/or bagpipes for the British.

Don't forget that not all uniform is issued, some of it is bought. There are military men on here who can tell you about having to buy uniform, and I know that in England and other places there have always been enterprising tailors that made uniforms that fit a little better and were maybe made from a little better cloth than the official issue, often for lower cost.

There really is no necessity for the British Army to have been involved, and it probably wasn't. All that would be necessary would be for the Indians (then, now Pakistanis since partition) to have made uniform items and for the British soldiers to have bought them with their own money. I would be more surprised if that had not happened, so I have no trouble believing that it did. Anyone who had to buy their own uniform and found that they could buy items locally in a low cost country would jump at the chance to save some money.