What is Traditional Highland Dress?

[davidlpope]

I believe that is Rex's well made point, exactly. "Tradition" is the historical constant root that is not open to "Fashion's" influence, but rather, the unchanging point where we all begin, and return to, when designing fashion.

Being of the blood, but not of the culture, I truly appreciate my friends of the Highlands participating and guiding me in my education. Thank you!

Brooke

Perhaps the as-yet unasked question is this:

Is it even possible to truly wear Traditional Highland Attire without emulating the style that is worn by Scots in the Highlands?

That is, perhaps when folks throughout the world "modify" Traditional Highland Attire to fit their own fashion sensibilities it ceases to be Traditional Highland Attire and becomes something else.

Cordially,

David

David, my answer is "no", but I think we might be better to exit this thread on the Duke of Rothesay and go to "What is Traditional Highland Dress" for further discussion. What say you and Brooke?

Rex

Rex,

I tend to be of the same view. I guess the follow-up question is whether or not it is possible to wear Traditional Highland Attire outside Scotland at all...

I have a very neat book in my library titled "Highland Heritage". The author does a pretty thorough job examining the phenomena of "Scottish-Americanism" in the American South from a socialogist's point of view. I'd love to get a review of it from the Highlanders that are on XMarks. It might make all the fuss on this side of the pond a bit more understandable. Then again, it may confuse "y'all" even more. PM me if you'd be interested in reading it and I will drop a copy in the mail.

David

[MacMillans son]

Thanks for the suggestion and the opportunity to continue the discussion gentleman. Yes I am with you Rex. I was thinking something very similar this afternoon. That is, the people of the culture are the ones who dictate what is traditional. It can not be dictated by those of us (like myself) who may have an attachment to the culture, but who are not of the culture. However an academic question did come up for me that you just touched on. How does a culture determine when something is traditional. It is not just a simple matter of "the original" or the "oldest example of". It seems that the definition does change over time to where current accepted convention becomes defined as traditional. A case in point, since we are talking about attire, the 4 yard box pleated kilt. At some point, and I am sure you probably know exactly at what point, that style of kilt was transitioned out in favor the 8 yard knife pleated kilt as the accepted example of a traditional kilt. And I bet the "traditionalist" old guard of the box pleated were having the same discussions with those that were trying to change convention in favor of the 8 yard knife pleated. "You can call it what you want, but its not traditional" kind of discussions. Of course, there are many things that influence how and why a current accepted practice changes over time. Do you think it's essentially when the majority of the people of the culture makes the change that it then goes on to become considered the new traditional ? I am visualizing 150 year cohorts moving through time, each considering their version as the definition of traditional. Your thoughts ?

Brooke

[ThistleDown]

Thanks for the suggestion and the opportunity to continue the discussion gentleman. Yes I am with you Rex. I was thinking something very similar this afternoon. That is, the people of the culture are the ones who dictate what is traditional. It can not be dictated by those of us (like myself) who may have an attachment to the culture, but who are not of the culture. However an academic question did come up for me that you just touched on. How does a culture determine when something is traditional. It is not just a simple matter of "the original" or the "oldest example of". It seems that the definition does change over time to where current accepted convention becomes defined as traditional. A case in point, since we are talking about attire, the 4 yard box pleated kilt. At some point, and I am sure you probably know exactly at what point, that style of kilt was transitioned out in favor the 8 yard knife pleated kilt as the accepted example of a traditional kilt. And I bet the "traditionalist" old guard of the box pleated were having the same discussions with those that were trying to change convention in favor of the 8 yard knife pleated. "You can call it what you want, but its not traditional" kind of discussions. Of course, there are many things that influence how and why a current accepted practice changes over time. Do you think it's essentially when the majority of the people of the culture makes the change that it then goes on to become considered the new traditional ? I am visualizing 150 year cohorts moving through time, each considering their version as the definition of traditional. Your thoughts ?

Brooke

I am afraid, Brooke, that I can't provide you with box-to-knife pleat transition dates and refer you to our own Matt Newsome's writings on the subject. In looking backwards, however, we should all be careful that we don't give too much credance to a perception of clothing pride that most likely was not there in the eras before our own.

Certainly there were "dandies" in urban society and a few among the leisure class, but Highland dress is a rural form of attire and the vast majority of country folk in Scotland did not have the gilt to even think about what they wore, except that it protect them from the cold and the wet. The paintings we have of individuals dressed to the teeth in tartan finery may well represent the posers of the day for all we know.

I doubt there is a pure answer to your question on evolution. As Jock has so well described, the existence of the flat cap as an item worn with Highland dress faded into and faded out of use and is now seen to be what it perhaps was -- a fashion or fad. The cap is still around, of course, but is perhaps similar to the American baseball cap and that's certainly not worn with Highland dress, either.

I wonder if we may actually draw a parallel with the ubiquitous baseball cap? As an item of head gear to keep the harsh sun from one's eyes it is good although to keep the rain off it is not so good. That's the utility of the thing. Has it now become a traditional item of clothing in America? Is wearing it backwards just a fashion within that tradition? And is wearing it indoors some sort of personal statement? If it continues to be worn backwards and indoors does that become the evolved tradition?
Oh dear, and how long do we have to put up with the fashion and style before we know for sure?

Rex

[MacMillans son]

I am afraid, Brooke, that I can't provide you with box-to-knife pleat transition dates and refer you to our own Matt Newsome's writings on the subject. In looking backwards, however, we should all be careful that we don't give too much credance to a perception of clothing pride that most likely was not there in the eras before our own.

Certainly there were "dandies" in urban society and a few among the leisure class, but Highland dress is a rural form of attire and the vast majority of country folk in Scotland did not have the gilt to even think about what they wore, except that it protect them from the cold and the wet. The paintings we have of individuals dressed to the teeth in tartan finery may well represent the posers of the day for all we know.

I doubt there is a pure answer to your question on evolution. As Jock has so well described, the existence of the flat cap as an item worn with Highland dress faded into and faded out of use and is now seen to be what it perhaps was -- a fashion or fad. The cap is still around, of course, but is perhaps similar to the American baseball cap and that's certainly not worn with Highland dress, either.

I wonder if we may actually draw a parallel with the ubiquitous baseball cap? As an item of head gear to keep the harsh sun from one's eyes it is good although to keep the rain off it is not so good. That's the utility of the thing. Has it now become a traditional item of clothing in America? Is wearing it backwards just a fashion within that tradition? And is wearing it indoors some sort of personal statement? If it continues to be worn backwards and indoors does that become the evolved tradition?
Oh dear, and how long do we have to put up with the fashion and style before we know for sure?



Rex

If it continues to be worn backwards and indoors does that become the evolved tradition?

If it does, I sure hope public beheadings return to fashion soon after!

I was sorry to hear about the flat cap, as I actually like that look. And of course, we are all free to wear whatever we are comfortable with, but as I am learning, we just need to be careful what we call it.

Over here we don't have the "tradition" of the kilt, so I don't think to wear it with the flat cap here would be understood to be a major style crisis. (similar to your crow feather head dress in Bavaria example earlier)

From Jock Scot's post, I am assuming that there are some mixed feelings about the beginning and/or the demise, of the flat cap "fashion". Was it a much debated issue in the Highlands? And if so, what were the issues?

I'm not sure if the baseball cap would be considered traditional yet, but it is certainly accepted as casual head wear. However, I am not sure of the parallels between the flat cap and the baseball cap. The baseball cap has always been a very informal, utilitarian item that has had an increase in use among the "Rap" faction in the last decade or so. And as a result, has gained greater appeal with younger wannabies of that group. It has never been worn by the general adult population with anything other than the most casual of clothing ie. jeans. My impression of the flat cap was that it was somewhat more in use with (avoiding mislableing) a tweed jacket and traditional kilt attire. Whereas, a ball cap here has never been acceptable wear, (with what I would assume our somewhat parallel style) with a sport coat and casual slacks for instance.

Can you and/or Jock shed some light on the flat cap issue over there? Is there a new traditional, or even fashionable, head wear in vogue these days or is bareheaded the commonest look ?

Brooke

[BoldHighlander]

It has never been worn by the general adult population with anything other than the most casual of clothing ie. jeans.

Well, it is worn regularly w/ a uniform in the security field & by some law enforcement departments (&/or law enforcement tactical units).... but I suppose that's more the exception than the rule

[MacMillans son]

Sorry for the pile of text. I'll insert some line spacing if I go on that long again.

[Jock Scot]

MacMillan's son.

I doubt that anyone even noticed the demise of the box pleated kilt as standard kilt wear. Most people were too busy getting on with living a fairly mundane life. Besides, in those days change to new things was in vogue. "Old" was dumped as a matter of course and often very swiftly in favour of the "New" latest super duper wizz bang gadget and I suspect that the Box pleated kilt went the way of many things at that time.It was a time when "Old" was out and "New" was in, much like the 1960's that some of us can remember!

Now, I hesitate to mention flat caps here( just so you know,this is a touchy subject), but we have hundreds of photographs of pre WW1 kilted gentlemen, shooting, fishing, walking, bicycling, climbing, posing and whatever, wearing the flat tweed cap, all pretty traditional you would have thought. For some reason, at about that time, that I have never really been able to fathom, until now, the flat cap went out of use as kilt attire. Not only did they go out of favour, they are regarded as a no-no these days(well, to my certain knowledge since 1940) by the kilt traditionalists.

So, by Rex's excellent definition the flat cap was a "fashion" item and as we all know fashions come and fashions go.

[Jock Scot]

Brooke.

The "Flat Caps" discussion was a "hot" topic for a while, some time ago and now, I think, has developed into a leg pull at my expense. That's fine by me as I think I can hold my part of the line!

From memory the problem discussion started when all these old pre WW1 pictures were used as evidence, by lets say non Scots, that flat tweed caps were part of traditional Highland kilt wear. I and others, tried to explain that these days bare headed was the usual Scots way and the flat cap is not and has not been worn with the kilt since about WW1 and what is more it is regarded as a traditional Highland kilt attire faux pas these days by many Scots.

Now it seems from the pictures published here and the ensuing furore that occurred it was assumed by many, including a few Scots, that the flat cap was acceptable Highland kilt attire, which of course these days in Scotland it is not. To cut a very long story short I think that both sides now understand each other's point of view more fully. In fact I think for many, including me, it was a defining moment in the realisation that there is a definite divergence of opinion and interpretation over what is and what is not traditional Highland Scots attire. I do have to say, that there are many outside these shores who forget where the kilt hails from and who it is that inherit, maintain, adjust and set, albeit unwittingly, those traditions -----the Scots.

To coin a phrase ; "the world will not stop spinning around" if a flat cap is worn with the kilt, just don't make the mistake of thinking it is traditional kilt attire and it looks smart. Kilts and kilt attire are not and as far as I know, never have been a major topic of conversation in Scotland. I suspect that the only time most people even think about the kilt over here, is five minutes before they are about to put the kilt on!

You may find an old thread interesting reading, if you can wade through it, it was called "theory and practice" by well er --me. It covers, amongst other things, the pitfalls of using old pictures as "proof" that wearing, lets say for example, a flat cap is acceptable kilt attire, when actually in Scotland, these days, it is not.

Make no mistake the flat cap is still in regular use in Scotland and is worn mainly, I suspect, by the "country set", but not with the kilt.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Another realization that came out of the "great flat cap debate" is that Scots in the UK and those of Scottish descent living in North America had different opinions on the matter. With very few exceptions, those in the UK thought the flat cap a no-no, while those on the other side of the Atlantic found nothing wrong with it.

This is relevant because, when you think about it for a moment:
--if your family left Scotland 100 or 200 years ago...
--and if your family has continued the tradition of kilt wearing for that time...
--it stands to reason that after all that time away from Scotland, fashion and your idea of "traditional" may change in minor or major ways.

And that's ok. Why shouldn't there be minor regional differences in how the kilt is worn in Ontario vs. Inverness? After all, there are differences in how the kilt is worn from one part of Scotland to the other.

The thing to remember, however, is that at the end of the day the kilt is Scottish National Dress, and our benchmark should be the Scottish tradition. Minor variances outwith Scotland are understandable, but they should be understood for what they are. The Scottish tradition should always be what we turn to for inspiration and guidance.

[Micric]

This is I find an interesting thread!

In a book I have on Tartans, there are drawings of the different tartans being worn.
Some of the depictions are of supposedly historic attire, wheras others are contemporary to the time when first published. (maybe late 40's?)

Some show gentlemen out shooting, wearing the kilt And deerstalker. Yet now, this appears as much a no-no as the flat cap.
Is this correct, or is the deerstalker acceptable to a greater degree than the flat cap?
The answer will be purely academic to me, as my old 'for and aft' is 30+ years old, and past it's best anyway!