outift advice

[azwildcat96]

I don't think it is an American thing vs a European thing that separates the knowledge of black tie or formal events and dress. I could be wrong but I don't believe formal attire is "taught" in European schools.

Perhaps I'll stick my neck on the chopping block (taking some heat off of Tobus) and state that these things are most often learned by one of two ways: 1) It is taught to children by their parents (probably families of upper class, or at least those aware of historically upper class traditions and attires), or 2) it is self taught (by anyone who is interested in this sort of thing).

I have friends and family that are partners in large law firms and accounting firms, and they regularly attend black tie events and own their own tuxedos. Is this a class (upper, lower, middle, etc.) thing? Maybe? Does it make someone that does not own or regularly wear black tie attire less in any way? Absolutely not!

[DougC]

Tobus--there are some of us US citizens that understand and appreciate formal dress codes. Some of us even own our own tuxedos and tails and aren't afraid to use them...

As for this thread...I for one think the question was a good one and appreciate the comments for what they are--a guide on what is appropriate to wear to a UN ball in a palace in Austria. I have to say, I won't be going to a UN ball in my foreseeable future. If that changes, I'm armed with the knowledge of this forum and can dress appropriately.

To the OP--have a great time at the ball and opera!

[DougC]

Azwildcat96--very well said. One third option; parents that taught themselves and passed it on to there children.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

THE TIME: New Years Eve, 2010/2011
THE PLACE: Staunton, Virginia (smack dab in the middle of the Shenandoah Valley)
THE VENUE: The Ball Room of the Stonewall Jackson Hotel
THE EVENT: The Frontier Culture Museum New Years Ball
THE REQUESTED DRESS: Black Tie

Okay, here you have it. A community of about 26,000 ordinary folks with a median income in the lower $40s. The event, at $125 per person, was sold out (220 tickets). Of the gentlemen attending, most were in black tie with a few (maybe 15-20) in dark suits. Who was there? Well, I saw Richard, my mechanic, Travis, the guy who runs the local Ace Hardware, two police officers, and Aaron, the owner of the local cigar store, all in black tie. There was also one gentleman present in a dinner jacket, starched dress shirt, self-tied bow tie, and a pair of well-worn, but well scrubbed, Levi 501s. None of these gentlemen are what you'd call high income earners-- but they are a pretty good cross section of what some might characterize as the middle class. They certainly aren't uber-rich, but they (and virtually all of the other guests present) do enjoy dressing up when the occasion calls for it. (The event, by the way, was over-subscribed with a waiting list of twenty-four.)

What it comes down to is this-- some ordinary, middle class, folks have no problem putting out a little effort to look nice for a special occasion.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

First, let me say that I spent 20 years in the USAF and retired as a Lt Col. So, I have a great appreciation for "dress codes". That said, it seems to me the basic question is, what constitutes "black tie"? According to the initial post, the invitation said "black tie". Please forgive me if I missed a subsequent post which indicated, "white tie", "national costume", or any other dress code specifications. I would ask the rabble: Isn't a PC, black tie, and tartan kilt considered "black tie"? Am I missing something?

No, you've got it right about the PC, black tie, and kilt. The missing piece of the puzzle is the venue. As unpopular as this view may be, there are times and places where the wearing of Highland attire to a black tie (or white tie) event-- especially by persons who are not, as it has been characterized by others, "native born Scots"-- may be deemed as wholly inappropriate.

Finally, perhaps it would help if we knew in what capacity the gentleman was attending the ball, i.e., is he officially representing a particular nation

The OP is an American, currently residing in Ireland, where he is employed by the Prison Service. He is attending a ball at the Hofburg Palace in Vienna, presumably as a private person, not as an official representative of Scotland.

The comment which I posted concerning "white tie, national costume" was intended to be instructional, offering as it did an explanation why the phrase "national costume" is sometimes found on invitations. Although not specifically related to the original post, it was somewhat germane because others on the thread had raised the issue of Highland attire as a "national costume".

Over the past twenty-five years, twenty-two of which were spent living in Europe, I have probably attended something in the realm of one hundred balls, a good third of them in Vienna. That said, it is my opinion (see my post #18 in this thread) that it would be inappropriate to wear Highland attire to a ball at the Hofburg.

[Downunder Kilt]

Someone hit the nail on the head, it is learned, either from your parents, relatives etc or you are self taught. There are a myriad of resources available for those that want to learn. There are those that put their own interpretation on what black/white tie means and their reasoning usually comes down that they want to be an individual.

From my own experience I would say that the general formality of dressing, whether it be for casual of formal events declined in the late 60's early 70's for a majority of the western world. One only has to look at old TV programes of the 50's & early 60's to see the different level of dress as against those of the later decades.

I am not suggesting that the change is wrong, but there is a way, even in this day and age, to dress in a correct manner in relation to the level of formality of the function that you will be attending.

If you don't know how to do it, then it's up to you to learn.

There are always some who want to stretch the boundaries, sometimes it's accepted, sometimes not

[macwilkin]

Post deleted.

[Mike M.]

I've only been to Vienna once, but I formed the impression that it might be the one city in which a gentleman might wind up wearing white tie often enough to make it worth buying.

[Jock Scot]

I had the occasion to go to our local High School to pick up two young couples from their Christmas Ball. The roads were bad due to snow and ice and as I had a 4x4 and the time their parents asked me to assist and I was delighted to help out. Any way the local School cannot be described as a school for "toffs" and there are are mixture of reasonably well off to those with extremely low incomed parents and some of those(too many) would have parents that are unemployed. So without dwelling on peoples circumstances I will get to the point.

I was delighted to note that all the young gentlemen leaving the ball were wearing a dinner jacket(tux), or appropriate Highland attire and without doubt many of the outfits were begged, borrowed, hired and I suspect, stolen!I have to say the young ladies looked beautiful and their outfits were a delight to the eye. So yes, the young here are well aware of dress codes(to a point) at a young age and thank goodness a black tie event is not regarded as a "toffs do", but more a case of doing justice to the occasion, themselves and their young lady.

[AKScott]

OP, I generally find MoR and Jock to know what they are talking about.

It is, in my experience, rare to find a situation where both suggest attire other than the kilt.

I have been to Europe once, I do own a tuxedo; once in my life I want to hear Beethoven played in Vienna. Apparently a dark suit will be a good choice for me.

I encourage you to go with a tuxedo for the party.

n00b AKScott