A question on ethics...

[James]

In many parts of the world there are male 'skirts': and I have seen them in The Pacific-Greece-The Maldives, South East Asia, and of course Scotland!

[Sorry, so as not to make this too complicated I've not mentioned Ireland and Wales, and the like-so please do not feel slighted.]

There are various names-such as Sulu, Sarong, Fustanella and of course the Kilt: in every case there is a certain link to the heritage of a specific people.

In the case of the kilt, that link is to Scotland and the heritage of Scotland: it is not to America-England or anywhere else: so to claim that the kilt is an American garment is nonsense. Fair enough that is a Scottish garment adopted for reason by some Americans, but that does not make it American.

Rather it is necessary to accept that if using the word kilt as a description of what one is wearing, subsumed to the use of that world is the link to Scotland and its heritage. Just as if using the word Sulu one would be looking to the Pacific, or Fustanella to Greece.

The root of the problem lies in the fact that many men are looking for entirely good reasons to wear an unbifurcated garment-yes a skirt: but to justify that wear are linking it to the world kilt. Doing this because kilt has a strong masculine association and thus they can distance themselves from any suggestion that they are indulging in an unmanly activity. At this point some are rightly looking to develop practical innovations to what they call the kilt for their own entirely good reasons: yet such developments can ever more distance what they are wearing from the kilt and its traditions.

This is not to deny that the kilt itself is an evolving garment, but it is a very different thing for that evolution to take place as a natural event within a developing heritage: than to try and remove the evolution entirely from its natural roots.

At this point we must come full circle and state that if using the word kilt, one is by definition accepting the link with Scotland and its heritage: if not accepting this, it is not the kilt that is being worn.

The root of the problem lies not in what men are wearing, but what it is called: and trying to stretch a definition beyond its rightful bounds. With the inevitable effect of polarising opinion into opposing camps.

I hope that my various posts since being a member of this board have shown that it is not my intention to trample upon American aspirations and culture: asking that just as I respect their ways, Americans will respect ours.

James

[macwilkin]

I do hope the intercontinental sniping will stop quickly.

I agree, Paco. Let's keep the discussion civil, please.

Todd

[Valencian Kilted]

...as in 1898, Spain didn't look for the war, , so I agree with the intercontinental "stop-fire", but anyway, I think all the responses were quite civilised and polite, uh?

I hope as well that those reactions were quite clearifying to understand our position against some "opinions" that made our fingers move faster than Billy the Kid's ones!

... so... in my opinion the offense will be forgoten ;)

¡Salud!

T O N O

[macwilkin]

...as in 1898, Spain didn't look for the war, , so I agree with the intercontinental "stop-fire", but anyway, I think all the responses were quite civilised and polite, uh?

I wasn't accusing anyone of being uncivil, Tono -- just reminding everyone of the house rules and trying to keep the thread from going that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Todd

[highlander_Daz]

First and foremost -the Kilt, Tartan , bagpipes/Loch ness monster etc. will always be associated and symbols of Scotland, the suggestion that somehow its been tanken onboard and improved in the US is a pushing the envelope a little, not everyone want to spend several hundred pounds on a real 16oz handmade Kilt so there will always be a market for "imitation" kilts that do the job nearly as well, however there is something very special about a handmade 16oz woolen Kilt that is quite unique. Im sure that Kilt makers in the US are just as capable as Scots however they are for the most part using skills and techniques that originated in Scotland, James it matters not if you had Scottish blood, I used to train in Martail arts but not one drop of chinese blood do I have in me , it never stopped me. A lot of myths and stories surround different Tartans and for the most part a large percentage are there to seperate you from your money, dont fall for it. find a Tartan you like and learn its history or join a clan association and get involved in events etc. the majority of out Highland ancesters did the same thing, they would take the name of the clan hence the large number of people with the same name in Scotland, many are not blood relatives but shared the same clan. whats changed? do it.
A real Kilt will always turn heads and look great when worn correctly. (I am not a fan of "utilikilts" and stuff like that but thats a different debate.)
good luck

[Valencian Kilted]

I wasn't accusing anyone of being uncivil, Tono -- just reminding everyone of the house rules and trying to keep the thread from going that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Todd

nah,... no need to sorry, guy, ur doing ur job pretty well, and that's smthg I really appreciate

¡Salud!

T O N O

[RockyR]

I fear I may be opening up a whole can of worms here but...

Ah, but you see, there is. Carroll is, in fact, O'Carroll and is represented through Clan Cian, which has its own tartan. Which opens up the wearing of many of the Irish tartans as well.

No one has brought up the fact that the Irish tartans are know as "Fashion tartans". They have not been "officially adopted" by the Irish Counties or the country as a whole. Can anyone wear any of the Irish tartans since they're not "OFFICIAL"? What about the German National tartan (which I now own)? What if I make up my OWN "Sutherland" (not trying to insult Sutherlands... just picking a Scottish name and making a point) tartan and register it? Are Sutherlands only allowed to wear it? What if the Sutherland Cheif doesn't like it and won't "accept it" but I already have it registered with the Tartan Authority as "Sutherland of Phoenixville"?

The self proclaimed "Oldest Kiltmaker on the Royal Mile" (Graham Muir at the Tartan Gift Shop) registered a tartan. He took the Cunningham sett and changed the colors to Pink and white and black. He REGISTERED IT as "Pink MacLeod". It's ACTUALLY a pretty cool tartan (Kelly ordered a few yards). Who has the "right" to wear it? Have the MacLeods adopted it into their tartan choices? Do the Cunninghams have a right to wear it even though it's CALLED "Pink MacLeod"? Is it just a Fashion tartan that anyone can wear?

Point is, while we all have strong opinions, people are going to wear what they want (or feel comfortable wearing) and playing the "tartan police" can get exhausting as I guess the man in Matt Newsome's example found out.

BTW... if you stop by Graham's shop, tell him Rocky from USA Kilts said hi and DON'T attack him! He's a tough old dude and he'll kick yer ****!

[Moosehead]

Good points Rocky. Along that train, there is a duly registered O'Brien tartan, but it is NOT the O'Brien tartan. Created and registered by one O'Brien gent in Oz, but not recognized by The O'Brien and the Clan. Anyone may wear it, just don't call it THE O'Brien Clan tartan.

[macwilkin]

I fear I may be opening up a whole can of worms here but...

No one has brought up the fact that the Irish tartans are know as "Fashion tartans". They have not been "officially adopted" by the Irish Counties or the country as a whole. Can anyone wear any of the Irish tartans since they're not "OFFICIAL"? What about the German National tartan (which I now own)? What if I make up my OWN "Sutherland" (not trying to insult Sutherlands... just picking a Scottish name and making a point) tartan and register it? Are Sutherlands only allowed to wear it? What if the Sutherland Cheif doesn't like it and won't "accept it" but I already have it registered with the Tartan Authority as "Sutherland of Phoenixville"?

The self proclaimed "Oldest Kiltmaker on the Royal Mile" (Graham Muir at the Tartan Gift Shop) registered a tartan. He took the Cunningham sett and changed the colors to Pink and white and black. He REGISTERED IT as "Pink MacLeod". It's ACTUALLY a pretty cool tartan (Kelly ordered a few yards). Who has the "right" to wear it? Have the MacLeods adopted it into their tartan choices? Do the Cunninghams have a right to wear it even though it's CALLED "Pink MacLeod"? Is it just a Fashion tartan that anyone can wear?

Point is, while we all have strong opinions, people are going to wear what they want (or feel comfortable wearing) and playing the "tartan police" can get exhausting as I guess the man in Matt Newsome's example found out.

BTW... if you stop by Graham's shop, tell him Rocky from USA Kilts said hi and DON'T attack him! He's a tough old dude and he'll kick yer ****!

Rocky,

I'm sure Matt will want to comment on this as well, but let me speak to a few points raised here:

1. The Irish county tartans are "fashion" tartans because they have not been officially recognized -- to have an "official" district tartan, it needs to be recognized through legislation by some governing body -- that is the precedent that has been set anyway. The county tartans were fashion tartans designed by the House of Edgar, and may be worn by anyone who wants to wear them, just the same as anyone who wants to wear an "official" state tartan from Iowa or Louisiana.

Another example: the US/St. Andrew's Tartan at one time was known as the "Bicentennial" tartan, as it was originally designed to commmemorate the US Bicentennial in 1976, yet the official Bicentennial Committee never officially recognized it, so it became US tartan that has become very popular.

Same with the German National Tartan: if you are from Germany, like Germany, are of German heritage, etc., then wear the tartan. There are no strict qualifications for wearing a district tartan.

Chiefs do have the final say in what is an official clan tartan. Case in point, the Duke of Argylls ruling that the Campbell of Argyll tartan is not officially recognised:

Many a Campbell and member of a Campbell sept has sought the answer to that question upon first becoming interested in his or her Scottish heritage. Unfortunately, many have looked to the wrong sources for the answer--namely, to merchants selling tartan goods. There is only one authority on the correct tartan or tartans of a clan: the chief of that clan. Not even the Scottish Tartans Society or the Lord Lyon King of Arms claim such authority--they are purely archivists of tartan history, which is, at best, a confused and confusing field.

Here is how our late chief, The 12th Duke of Argyll, and re-affirmed by our current Chief, The 13th Duke of Argyll, MacCailein Mor, summed up the official position on Campbell tartans consistently declared for well over one hundred years by successive Chiefs of Clan Campbell:

"...the only tartans which I recognize are, firstly, the one you see me and my wife wearing, which goes under various names, such as ordinary Campbell, Ancient Campbell, etc., and all members of our clan who are not specifically identified with [the Houses of Breadalbane, Cawdor [or] Loudoun are entitled to wear it.
Let me get rid, once and for all, of the thought that there is a 'Campbell of Argyll' [tartan]. While it is true that the Sixth Duke [of Argyll] introduced a white line to his plain Campbell tartan to differentiate himself from the rest of the Campbells, (he being the chief and entitled to do so), he was the only member of the family so to do and the rest of the family thought he was rather pompous to do it.

Campbell of Breadalbane--fine [to wear].

Campbell of Cawdor--fine.

Campbell of Loudoun--fine.

Campbell of Glenlyon--I have never heard of it.

Campbell of Loch Awe-this is plain ridiculous, as we are all Campbells of Loch Awe originally. - Apart from anything else, I have never heard of a Campbell of Loch Awe tartan, nor do I wish to do so.

THERE IS NO DRESS CAMPBELL [TARTAN]--repeat! repeat! repeat!

There is NO HUNTING CAMPBELL.

There is NO CAMPRELL RED.

There is NO CAMPBELL - SIMPSON.

There are no Campbell cheques, other than commercial ones...

If I feel strongly about anything and would like it inscribed on my tombstone, there might be a few lines such as 'All Campbells with the exception of the three principal septs [the Houses of Breadalbane, Cawdor and Loudoun] should wear plain undifferentiated Campbell for evermore and not get confused by peddlers of this [other] material that comes under all sorts of guises.

Yours ever,


Your Kinsman and Chief,

Argyll

[From a letter to William A. Mitchell. late Clan Campbell Society U.S.A. genealogist]

To summarize, then, there are just four authentic Campbell tartans: Ancient or "plain" Campbell, Campbell of Breadalbane, Campbell of Cawdor, and Campbell of Loudoun. To be faithful to Scottish tradition, only those descended from the Houses of Breadalbane, Cawdor and Loudoun should wear the tartans belonging to those houses; all other Campbells and members of other Campbell septs should wear Ancient or "plain" Campbell tartan, which is composed of threads of only three colors: blue, green and black--with no overstripes of any other color.

-- http://www.ccsna.org/jsep50a.htm#A0

In another area of the site, there is a statement:

"Argyle", with white and yellow lines, and "Dress", with areas of white, are NOT authorized tartans, although the Argyle is heavily promoted by the trade. Those who already posess non-authorized tartans should not hesitate to wear them.

I'm going to let Matt speak to the issue of personal tartans, since I know he has experience with that.

Regards,

Todd

[Iolaus]

...As for the wearing of the Saltire Tartan... I find myself somewhat curious about something. How many of the fellows here who have denounced the wear of a Saltire Tartan kilt as being offensive and disresectful own one of the XMarkstheScot.com t-shirts? I only ask because inclusion of the X and the coloration of the shirt allude to the Scottish flag (the design is after all based on the site logo which has the Scottish flag in it). Is the t-shirt disresectful, or does the disresect come from sitting on the flag?

Well, I haven't read past this post yet, so this may have been said already, but in my mind, it is the placementof the symbol that bothers me. The fact that it is below the waist seems, for some reason, to be disrespectful; I would feel the same way about putting it on the apron. In my mind, there is a difference between "display" on the top half of the body, and "decoration" on the bottom half.