Broad Scots / Lallans

[pdcorlis]

I regret that have nothing to add to this thread except for my deep appreciation for this very interesting discussion. I love it when I get to learn something!

[slohairt]

MacWage,

That's true to some extent, although you'll find that Celtic languages had surprisingly little influence on any language groups (including Latin/Romance). In pre-Saxon Britain, Brythonic "P"-type Celtic would have been spoken mainly by the lower classes and rural folk, while Latin would have been spoken by higher classes, Roman officials, etc. While there was certainly influence, I don't think it could be said they spoke a distinct variety of "Celto-Latin."

As for British English (a/k/a Anglo-Saxon) being distinct from its Germanic roots; very true. This would be from the amalgamation of Angle, Saxon and Jute dialects, with later Danish influence. In what is now modern-day Germany, a greater number of dialects and separate influences converged to form what we call German (whether, High, Low, etc.).

Norman-French was really more of a dialect of French with some Norse influence. The Norsemen discarded their original language fairly quickly when they settled in Normandy. Much of the influence is in nautical and military terminology.

English is still, and will always be, a Germanic language. While the majority of its vocabulary today comes from the Norman dialect of French (and Latin and Greek via Norman-French), most of its structure and important words come from Anglo-Saxon.

I would also be inclined to say that Lallans has probably more Norse influence that English. After all, Norse was spoken on mainland Scotland until fairly recently (relatively speaking). And Norn still exists to some extent.

[slohairt]

A bit separate, so a different post:

My comments earlier on "Southern" is based on my interest that the language around me may be one of the older surviving forms of the spoken tongue from the "borders" region. There are SEVERAL distinct local and regional "Southern" accents and venacular idiomatic verbage. Even in South Carolina, there are several DISTINCT ones, Charleston is markedly different from the Upstate area.
What is interesting is that the 2 "maligned" accents (if you allow the term for this comparison) share numerous characteristics and characteristics. Of course, they diverged with different influences in the last couple hundred years, allowing for many MARKED word usage differences. However, many odd constructions and phrases are shared by both.
One linguist I talked to said that Appalachia may be closer to the ACTUAL language of Shakespeare than anything present in Britain today.

Ah reckon ye may be correct in that assumption, sir!

I've travelled fairly extensively in the South, and I've certainly noticed distinct accents and other patterns of speech from area to area. Canada, too has a number of distinct accents (and in some areas dialects).

[highlander_Daz]

youve made some fantasticpoints there and I accept most of them, however my main point being that lallans, isnt the "Scots language" it represents how a percentage of Scots speak , is it a language of its own, thats for others posters to decide, however to me it isnt the "scots language"

[ChromeScholar]

It is certainly appears to be a Scots language, even if it isn't the Scots language.

[slohairt]

youve made some fantasticpoints there and I accept most of them, however my main point being that lallans, isnt the "Scots language" it represents how a percentage of Scots speak , is it a language of its own, thats for others posters to decide, however to me it is the "scots language"

I'm not sure what exactly you mean. Are you saying that Lallans isn't THE language of Scotland? If so, very true. Many languages have been spoken in Scotland over the centuries but the three that still survive are English (Scottish English), Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig), and Lowland Scots (Lallans). Yes, only a percentage of Scottish people speak a dialect of Lallans (my grandmother from the Aberdeen area uses the "Buchan Claik", for example) but an even smaller percentage speak Scottish Gaelic. For them, Lallans is/was not and never will be their language.

However, all Scottish people speak English, so I agree that many would not wish to learn Lallans, or claim it as their own. I think that's why Parliament is tentatively claiming Scotland as a tri-lingual state. Lallans and Scottish Gaelic are there if you want to use them, or not, if you don't.

[highlander_Daz]

I meant to say ISNT oops ,

lIm much more fascinated by Doric!!

[slohairt]

Doric = North East dialect of Scots = The Moray Claik = The Buchan Claik = Lallans.

[James MacMillan]

"pants" "elevator" "suspenders"!!!

"pants" = what the dog does when it's hot.

"elevator" = any foreign substance that when eaten causes blood pressure to rise, also sometimes, listening to idiots

"suspenders" = another name for mystery writers.

[Archangel]

Perhaps this is what the Scottish Parliament and other institutions are trying to do: standardize things. And in the world of languages, that generally means favouring one dialect over another.

An haes been for aboot 300 years nou.

Good observation. One of the reasons I'm not particularly fond of Rabbi Burns is that, while he promoted common Scot by writing in dialect, he trashed other aspects of common Scottish life.

He had an agenda and very powerful allies. There was a vision of Scotland he had that he wanted to present to the world. He used his art to promote but the subject matter eradicated practices he disagreed with.