A Modern Scottish View of Clans (and Gathering)

[SteveB]

This topic has wandered into many areas..

I am an American, a part of that "New World". I also live in a nation that is just shy of four hundred years of its beginnings as a colony of the Crown.
I am the president of two lineage societies here in the U.S. One is The National Society of Old Plymouth Colony Descendants. It is made up of those who can trace their ancestry back to someone who settled in Plymouth Colony whether voluntarily or otherwise. The second is the Piscataqua Pioneers, which are descendants of the settlers of the Piscataqua River valley, whether voluntarily or otherwise, before the colonies separated from the Crown. As Americans are a hodge podge of lineage in the great Melting Pot, many seek to understand where their roots came from. Our research takes us outside the boundaries of North America rather rapidly to some "Old Country".

I have a Highland Scot ancestor that was sold for 3 pounds, 3 shillings, 2 pence at York, Maine in the 1600's. I would hope someday to find out how close to Jock Scot is the home he was taken from. I also hope to be able to identify who he actually is and from what clan he was taken prisoner. The real history that I find in the documents of the victors paints a very different picture than most Americans have been given from the Victorian Era mythology. I hope to retire with enough life and energy to make as many trips to the United Kingdom as it takes to learn the truth. I do so with an open mind.

In chasing our ancestral roots, many who have possible Scot connections, look to the clan societies and the clan genealogist to help us further our understanding of those early ancestors. The clan societies need funds to pursue these endeavours. Some Americans fund this through the membership in multiple clan societies to further their genealogical quest. PLEASE NOTE, I stated clan societies. I did not say clan. The dues, to the clan society, is our way of paying for the resource. For this reason, I do pay dues to Clan Lamont, as I may find the patralineal link in their genealogical work.

I have documented the genealogy on my mother's side of the family back to a family MacNeil. It is through this research and that of the Clan MacNeil Association genealogist that I have established a blood line that goes back to Alba. We were definitely lackeys in the clan. I have no blood to a chief. As this is the only truly proven line to Alba, I will proudly wear the MacNeil tartan, pay the dues, and work my backside off at the clan tent at the New Hampshire Highland Games this September.

Phil,
With all of this in mind, I will not be at the Gathering. I do feel that it is more pomp and not much more in it that I can do from this side of the salt puddle.
I have cheerfully spent over 2,000 pounds on my Highland kit and related items of Scot origin. I will at some time in the near future, when my tutor says that I am ready, spend some thousand or more on my Highland Bagpipes.

The cultural traditions of Scotland are perceived by many Americans when observing pipe bands in parades and at celebrations, as well as any gent wearing the kilt. It is therefore incumbent on me when I put on my Highland kit and strike up the pipes, that I do so with respect and honour the cultural realm of today's Scotland. The inherent worth of my ancestors demands nothing less.

Slainte

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

61 posts in 37 hours, and many of them bitter about how unfair it is to not be a member of the lucky sperm club, and how this is somehow tied into accidents of birth, etc. This almost sounds like the basis of the next Dan Brown conspiracy book-- Angles and Crofters, maybe? Or would it be The Karl Marx Code?

It has been my observation that people with talent, who apply themselves, inevitably do well. Those who sit on the sidelines of life and piss and moan about how unfair things are usually accomplish little, regardless of their self-styled "social status" or third level (and often second rate) academic attainments .

Let me use the example of Malcolm, an 18th century crofter on Arran who had two sons, Daniel and Alexander. In the 1830s Malcolm's sons left Arran, went to Edinburgh and set up as book sellers. There Malcolm's sons worked hard, expanded their business and, moving to England, founded a publishing company in 1845. Daniel had a son, Maurice, who followed in his father's footsteps in the family business. Maurice had a son, also named Maurice, who, in turn, also became chairman of the family publishing business. But only after he had spent a lifetime in public service, eventually becoming the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Now if the great-grandson of an 18th century crofter from Arran could become Prime Minister there is obviously a lot more emphasis placed on meritocracy in the United kingdom than some are willing to admit.

So, it seems to me that if one isn't the Prime Minister, or isn't rich, or isn't... whatever, it's not the fault of the hereditary landed classes. It's probably one's own fault for not having made the best of every opportunity that came their way.

[gilmore]

...
Now if the great-grandson of an 18th century crofter from Arran could become Prime Minister there is obviously a lot more emphasis placed on meritocracy in the United kingdom than some are willing to admit.

...

And to think, it took only four generations and some 200 years, as opposed to, say, some other countries where the bi-racial son of a deserted single mother---also from a remote island off the country's western coast--- became president before he was 50 years old.

[David Dalglish]

I belive that the GATHERING is one big rip off.

[Bruce Scott]

Maurice had a son, also named Maurice, who, in turn, also became chairman of the family publishing business. But only after he had spent a lifetime in public service, eventually becoming the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Somewhat better known as Harold, I believe.

[Bigkahuna]

This topic has wandered into many areas..

I am an American, a part of that "New World". I also live in a nation that is just shy of four hundred years of its beginnings as a colony of the Crown.
I am the president of two lineage societies here in the U.S. One is The National Society of Old Plymouth Colony Descendants. It is made up of those who can trace their ancestry back to someone who settled in Plymouth Colony whether voluntarily or otherwise. The second is the Piscataqua Pioneers, which are descendants of the settlers of the Piscataqua River valley, whether voluntarily or otherwise, before the colonies separated from the Crown. As Americans are a hodge podge of lineage in the great Melting Pot, many seek to understand where their roots came from. Our research takes us outside the boundaries of North America rather rapidly to some "Old Country".

I have a Highland Scot ancestor that was sold for 3 pounds, 3 shillings, 2 pence at York, Maine in the 1600's. I would hope someday to find out how close to Jock Scot is the home he was taken from. I also hope to be able to identify who he actually is and from what clan he was taken prisoner. The real history that I find in the documents of the victors paints a very different picture than most Americans have been given from the Victorian Era mythology. I hope to retire with enough life and energy to make as many trips to the United Kingdom as it takes to learn the truth. I do so with an open mind.

In chasing our ancestral roots, many who have possible Scot connections, look to the clan societies and the clan genealogist to help us further our understanding of those early ancestors. The clan societies need funds to pursue these endeavours. Some Americans fund this through the membership in multiple clan societies to further their genealogical quest. PLEASE NOTE, I stated clan societies. I did not say clan. The dues, to the clan society, is our way of paying for the resource. For this reason, I do pay dues to Clan Lamont, as I may find the patralineal link in their genealogical work.

I have documented the genealogy on my mother's side of the family back to a family MacNeil. It is through this research and that of the Clan MacNeil Association genealogist that I have established a blood line that goes back to Alba. We were definitely lackeys in the clan. I have no blood to a chief. As this is the only truly proven line to Alba, I will proudly wear the MacNeil tartan, pay the dues, and work my backside off at the clan tent at the New Hampshire Highland Games this September.

Phil,
With all of this in mind, I will not be at the Gathering. I do feel that it is more pomp and not much more in it that I can do from this side of the salt puddle.
I have cheerfully spent over 2,000 pounds on my Highland kit and related items of Scot origin. I will at some time in the near future, when my tutor says that I am ready, spend some thousand or more on my Highland Bagpipes.

The cultural traditions of Scotland are perceived by many Americans when observing pipe bands in parades and at celebrations, as well as any gent wearing the kilt. It is therefore incumbent on me when I put on my Highland kit and strike up the pipes, that I do so with respect and honour the cultural realm of today's Scotland. The inherent worth of my ancestors demands nothing less.

Slainte

:food-smiley-002:As a descendant of Eastern Woodlands First Nations I guess I could say my ancestors ate your ancestors.

[Phil]

61 posts in 37 hours, and many of them bitter about how unfair it is to not be a member of the lucky sperm club, and how this is somehow tied into accidents of birth, etc. This almost sounds like the basis of the next Dan Brown conspiracy book-- Angles and Crofters, maybe? Or would it be The Karl Marx Code?

It has been my observation that people with talent, who apply themselves, inevitably do well. Those who sit on the sidelines of life and piss and moan about how unfair things are usually accomplish little, regardless of their self-styled "social status" or third level (and often second rate) academic attainments .

Let me use the example of Malcolm, an 18th century crofter on Arran who had two sons, Daniel and Alexander. In the 1830s Malcolm's sons left Arran, went to Edinburgh and set up as book sellers. There Malcolm's sons worked hard, expanded their business and, moving to England, founded a publishing company in 1845. Daniel had a son, Maurice, who followed in his father's footsteps in the family business. Maurice had a son, also named Maurice, who, in turn, also became chairman of the family publishing business. But only after he had spent a lifetime in public service, eventually becoming the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Now if the great-grandson of an 18th century crofter from Arran could become Prime Minister there is obviously a lot more emphasis placed on meritocracy in the United kingdom than some are willing to admit.

So, it seems to me that if one isn't the Prime Minister, or isn't rich, or isn't... whatever, it's not the fault of the hereditary landed classes. It's probably one's own fault for not having made the best of every opportunity that came their way.

Excellent reply, MOR, and I am sure there is not a better example of the point I was trying to get across. You refer, of course, to the former Conservative British Prime Minister known as Harold MacMillan (he dropped the Maurice). Although he, himself was not exactly a “lad o pairts”, that distinction really belonging to his forebears in the 19th century who started the family publishing dynasty. Perhaps another example would be our present Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, a kirk minister’s son, educated at a State school rather than an exclusive and costly establishment such as Eton where MacMillan was educated, and who has achieved high office regardless of this.
But there could be no better example than Harold MacMillan who, despite his great talents, privileged education, connection to noble families (the Devonshires) through marriage still could never become chief of his clan.

[SteveB]

Bigkahuna,
My spouse's family is the one your ancestors ate, mine ran back to Plymouth Colony before the attack. My spouse's ancestors got caught in the conflict with your ancestors. As a proud supporter of the Wampanoag Indigenous Program at Plimoth Plantation, I can say all is forgiven.
Slainte

[DWFII]

And to think, it took only four generations and some 200 years, as opposed to, say, some other countries where the bi-racial son of a deserted single mother---also from a remote island off the country's western coast--- became president before he was 50 years old.

No. it took 300 odd years. How many generations is that?

It also should be noted that our fine "meritocracy" here in the USA is based on avarice and ruthlessness more than actual accomplishment or talent. If you are more ruthless than your peers, you'll do well in this society. How is that significantly different than clan or feudal societies? Our avarice is based on transportable wealth whereas theirs was land based, that's all I can see.

This is not to say that people with real talent and real energy won't do well, but they will generally do well in any society. It is worth noting that the freedoms and the opportunities that any society offers it members are generally the result of years, generations, even centuries of evolution and change. That evolution in the UK begat the system we have in the US, just as it begat the system that is now extant in Britain. The worth of a people and the society they live in needs to be judged on how far they've come, how inevitably change has prevailed, not where they were six hundred, three hundred or even fifty years ago.

61 posts in 37 hours, and many of them bitter about how unfair it is to not be a member of the lucky sperm club, and how this is somehow tied into accidents of birth, etc. This almost sounds like the basis of the next Dan Brown conspiracy book-- Angles and Crofters, maybe? Or would it be The Karl Marx Code?

It has been my observation that people with talent, who apply themselves, inevitably do well. Those who sit on the sidelines of life and piss and moan about how unfair things are usually accomplish little, regardless of their self-styled "social status" or third level (and often second rate) academic attainments .

MOR hit the nail on the head (especially the "bitter" part). And it is a theme that has run through both this thread and the one previous that got "capped" because it "went on for 18 pages"--a fate most "serious" discussions, sadly, seem to suffer.

[Phil]

"A Modern Scottish View of Clans (and Gathering)" was the original title of this post. Sadly no other actual Scottish people seem able or willing to contribute so I will bow out now before the inevitable tide of opprobrium descends upon me. If anyone feels that this has been a one-sided discussion then that is probably because that is precisely the case.