Ponderings of an ancient Scot.

[###KILTEDKIWI###]

Originally Posted by Jock Scot
GREAT! Now here is the crunch Question! "Is it now time for the non Scots to START to wear their own (non Scots) tartans?"

... I really hope that the kilt wearers of the future, with distant, or non Scots connections, will move on to new tartans and leave the clan tartans to the Scots. Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

I am a forth generation Kiwi, who's family has always been involved with pipe bands and Caledonian societies, from a part of the country where Predominantly, the Jocks settled on arriving here.

I grew up seeing and only knowing about one tartan "belonging" / being associated to the family name. I am also a fifth generation serviceman, and wear the Cunningham tartan, as not only a connection to my past, but to celebrate those sacrifices and hardships of service. And due to that quite the tradionalist, in some respects.

To my point, my son is a mix of European and Chinese blood, his mother, my wife is half Chinese, and half European (Scottish/Irish) (if you were doing proportions)(which is another reason this country is great)

He may feel that because he is of mixed origins, he maybe slightly at odds with wearing the Cunningham tartan at all, and even then he may not wish to celebrate his origins by wearing a kilt.
(I have no problem with that at all, but shorts, jandals and a wife beater singlet, does not make a grand national attire.)

But if he did, I personally feel that I may try and steer him to wear the New Zealand Tartan. Which as time goes on, will I feel be more appropriate for someone of his generation to wear.

(Brian Beedee, has one in this tartan, couldnt find that post)

http://www.tartansofnz.com/index.php?page=information

I find myself tending to agree with your comment, that it might be time for those of us, so removed from their origins, to take it on the chin, and wear tartans of their country, provinces and or state for the yanks etc.

As I have never had to face that problem,I stand to be corrected here, but as far as I am aware there is nothing stopping you from returning here, apart from the "normal hoops and jumps" that any visitor wishing to take up residence here has to endure. Perhaps I am being naive?

You can keep your country (no offence), I have the greatest one in the world to call home and wouldnt live anywhere else.

It already does, if you're a Kiwi and play rugby!

Japan has John Kirwan (not that it helped the I ties much) as coach and about half a dozen Kiwi's playing for the national team now (gestimate).

[OC Richard]

To my point, my son is a mix of European and Chinese blood, his mother, my wife is half Chinese, and half European (Scottish/Irish) (if you were doing proportions)(which is another reason this country is great)

Our country is great in that way too! The pipe band I play in has a very wide mix of ethnicities which reflects our area: Chinese, Thai, Mexican, African, Philipino, Scandinavian, German, English, etc as well as a few of Scottish or Irish descent. Here are some of us:

[Jock Scot]

Wow, what interesting replies! I mean it, I am impressed. It is a bit unfair to pick out just one train of thought, but Rocky's surprised me. He is at the sharp end of the kilt world, making and selling kilts, so he knows better than most of us what he can and can't sell, and his confidence on being able to sell "new" tartans, if he could get his hands on them, is very interesting. Thank you every one and keep those thoughts coming.

[RockyR]

[Rocky] is at the sharp end of the kilt world, making and selling kilts, so he knows better than most of us what he can and can't sell, and his confidence on being able to sell "new" tartans, if he could get his hands on them, is very interesting.

My confidence level surprises many, including Kelly. She think's it's a bit too high and likes to humble me on occasion (or at least try).

In all seriousness, it all comes down to knowledge and education about the subject. If I had state tartans to show people (at a 'regular' price), it would open their eyes to brand new possibilities and excite them about new tartans they'd have a connection to.

[Am Bàrd]

Interesting thread....

While I do see a movement to non-traditional and newer tartans, I think that there will always be 'old standbys' - classics that are always around and worn. Perhaps with the rationale that the wearer has a link of some kind, or not. Many folks these days don't feel they need a link to justify wearing a particular tartan - and in reality, who would enforce a tartan's required allegiance? The clan system is no longer functional (though the societies do exist in many cases).

And this draws me into another portion of Jock's post - the term Non-Scots. What precisely makes one a Non-Scot? Surely it isn't determined by blood. We have people on this very forum of pure Scottish pedigree who are looked upon as foreigners simply because they live somewhere else.
Let us also not forget the blood mixed through the ages - Pict, Norman, Irish, Scandinavian - in addition to the 'original' Scotti that people that migrated.

So what is a Non-Scot? Is it geographically bound? If I took a Scot from Scotland and placed them in France, do they then stop being a Scot?

I posit that a Scot can be a person who has a love of Scotland and all things Scottish. A Scot is a person, that if the country put out a call, would send aid in any way they could.

I hope I'm not offending, though I fear I am.
Perhaps we need to institute a new term 'Honourary Scot', or perhaps 'Blood Scot' (if it applies) - for those of us with a connection that we feel deeply.

I do hope I'm not just indulging my North American 'need to belong'.

-John

[NewEnglander]

In all seriousness, it all comes down to knowledge and education about the subject. If I had state tartans to show people (at a 'regular' price), it would open their eyes to brand new possibilities and excite them about new tartans they'd have a connection to.

I know I'd be all about buying a kilt in the tartan of my home state and the states where I lived for any length of time. But until then I'll stick with the tartan of my ancestors (albeit just some of them).

[billmcc]

In all seriousness, it all comes down to knowledge and education about the subject. If I had state tartans to show people (at a 'regular' price), it would open their eyes to brand new possibilities and excite them about new tartans they'd have a connection to.

I have talked to numerous people who assumed all tartans were clan tartans. Most people have never heard of district tartans. Many stated they would be very interested in tartans with a close personal connection, such as a state or organizational tartan.

[be da veva]

Morning already.....

I now see clan tartans as something more related to actual family,friends, association, etc.... there are a few «clan» tartan that I see every where that for some reason don't quite make it to my «have to ask permission» mode. Ramsay blue is one of them. I got one from Alan H and I liked the colors, it was (is) a perfect match for my work uniform. But now, I see that tartan everywhere... bags, work jacket, and so on...

Seeing them like this kinda makes it (to my eyes) a commercial tartan. There are many tartan available with the same colors which are not clan based, why do companys choose clan related tartans... I feel it is like replicating a family coat of arms and making money with it. I can understand it is a beautiful tartan, I find a lot of them are to my taste. But I will now ask if I am welcome to wear it.

As for the future, Well, more kilt wearers is ok as long as they don't wear them sloppily. To me, wearing a kilt started asa meaning to honor some ancestors on my mothers side. Now, It is just plain comfortable and I like the way I present myself to others when I wear them. Sure, I wear it casual, more formal, heck sometimes I wear it gonzo style... But everytime I strap one one, it as to look good. Not sloppy. Don't wear it to low, or backwards or inside out.... This is what I am afraid of when I think of kilts in the future.
I don't mind the color schemes, but the way it should be worn.

It is a simple garment and it goes well with many accessories, but I do not want it to be cheaply made or cheaply looking. It might sond silly, but I don't want my good kilt to be compared with somebody else's cheap kilt or cheap costume. We can all see some of the clothes people wear these days (and in the old days...) Some of these clothes are atrocious....

I don't want the kilt to develop and be worn like snoop dogg did a few years ago.

rant over ;)

Good thread, but I need a time out.... very good thread. ;)

[Howard Clark]

If I could get the Iowa tartan at stock prices in heavy weight wool, I'd be on it in an instant.

I have a variety of tartans, and only tenuous hereditary connection to any of them. Two are Robert Noble MoD surplus materials from the regiments being re-organized. I like the tartans better than solid colours or tweeds at this point, though I do also have kilts made from both of those as well.

[Tobus]

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet (if it has and I missed it, I apologize)...

The "clan tartans", as I understand it, weren't really clan tartans until after the clan system was pretty much destroyed. Before that, people wore whatever tartan they happened to like.

Why would the future be any different? Why should it?

The entire discussion has revolved around the concept that clan tartans are (or should be) kept for use by Scots who are affiliated with a particular clan. But it wasn't that way to begin with, and at this point I really don't see it ever going back. That particular genie is long since out of the bottle. Assigning significance to a tartan is a relatively new (post-clan-heyday) concept.

If we're reaching into the future, though, to project what we'd like to see, I would very much like to see the kilt become more commonplace in society with the new tartans gaining widespread recognition for their significance. In 30 years, let's say, I'd like to be visiting another US State wearing a Texas tartan kilt and have people know that I'm from Texas. Will that happen? Probably not. But one can dream.

Another thing Jock Scot mentioned is the question of why anyone would have more than one tartan. If we are to go back, again, to history where all tartans were fashion tartans (i.e. people wore what they liked), the same question could be asked of anything you wear. Why have more than one color shirt? Why have more than one color pair of trousers? Why have more than one color pair of shoes? The answer should be obvious. People who aren't wearing tartan as part of a uniform will want diversity in their wardrobe.