To the Forum regarding the XMTSAS Saltire

[azwildcat96]

Not angry. Just trying to point out that this reminds me of a little kid that takes his soccer ball home because he didn't like losing a game. Basically ruining it for the rest of the kids until they find another ball. Seems a little selfish. Really isn't a big deal, and didn't mean to make it one. Let's figure out what the new "ball" should be, and move on. I know there are already other posts discussing this now. Enough said.

[JSFMACLJR]

Not angry. Just trying to point out that this reminds me of a little kid that takes his soccer ball home because he didn't like losing a game. Basically ruining it for the rest of the kids until they find another ball. Seems a little selfish. Really isn't a big deal, and didn't mean to make it one. Let's figure out what the new "ball" should be, and move on. I know there are already other posts discussing this now. Enough said.

Why does this forum need a "new ball"?

[Paul Henry]

Not angry. Just trying to point out that this reminds me of a little kid that takes his soccer ball home because he didn't like losing a game. Basically ruining it for the rest of the kids until they find another ball. Seems a little selfish. Really isn't a big deal, and didn't mean to make it one. Let's figure out what the new "ball" should be, and move on. I know there are already other posts discussing this now. Enough said.

There is little need for name calling.
I don't imagine many people would consider Jamie selfish in any way.

With thoughts like this expressed it's little wonder the Saltire is retiring. It was fun whilst it lasted, but it's time in this forum is over. The idea of replacing it is wrong, it simply isn't something that can be; it represented a different time, many different people and different ideas.
Something new can be found of course, but it shouldn't just be a replacement

[The Barry]

Not angry. Just trying to point out that this reminds me of a little kid that takes his soccer ball home because he didn't like losing a game. Basically ruining it for the rest of the kids until they find another ball. Seems a little selfish. Really isn't a big deal, and didn't mean to make it one. Let's figure out what the new "ball" should be, and move on. I know there are already other posts discussing this now. Enough said.

Maybe we should just use a soccer ball.

I am personally disappointed that I was never able to host the Saltire. I'm also not going to worry about it. I was hoping that it belonged to the larger group of us rather than just to one member, but again, I'm not too worried about it.

I hope that we agree that if we make another 'traveler', it doesn't belong to anybody, and thus can keep traveling even if someone decides to stop being active on this forum.

[Raphael]

The Saltire airship has never been the property of xmarksthescot.com. It is developed, owned and operated by Panache. He was nice enough to send the airship around the world and to meet the people that Panache couldn't meet personally. The Saltire may have become something bigger than what Panache had first imagined. But the bottom line is that Panache owns the ship and if he wants the ship to retire, he can.

Move on people.

[Nighthawk]

Sorry, but I don't see that analogy at all. My grandfather took his masonic apron to the grave with him as part of masonic funeral rites, but I don't see that as a slap in the face. I have other items to remember him and his membership in the craft. The family tradition of males joining the lodge continued, regardless of whether his apron is above or below the ground.



I view the Saltire much like I view the old Hamish Mk. I pose that he retired a number of years ago. Folks didn't gather torches and pitchforks when Hamish announced its retirement; they simply came up with new poses, with Hamish in the lead.

T.

The analogy is one of a family heirloom. You father was supposed to be buried with his apron! Our family sword has been in the family since the Civil War, and is supposed to be passed down from one generation to the next. That was my point- that was, as I read Panache's original posts, the idea behind the Saltire, which is what makes it poignant. Poses are not things that get passed along in order to help unify...

See, one of the reasons that I so love the Saltire is that it makes this forum totally unique as far as I can tell! To my knowledge, there is no other
online community with something quite as uniquely unifying. I'm upset by the retirement because I feel like future members deserve that link to the past, that unity with the rest of us.
As to the next incarnation of the Saltire, I would love to personally either create or help to create the next world traveler, and it will be the property of this forum and everyone on it, to be retired when no one wants to host it any longer!

[macwilkin]

The analogy is one of a family heirloom. You father was supposed to be buried with his apron! Our family sword has been in the family since the Civil War, and is supposed to be passed down from one generation to the next. That was my point- that was, as I read Panache's original posts, the idea behind the Saltire, which is what makes it poignant. Poses are not things that get passed along in order to help unify...

See, one of the reasons that I so love the Saltire is that it makes this forum totally unique as far as I can tell! To my knowledge, there is no other
online community with something quite as uniquely unifying. I'm upset by the retirement because I feel like future members deserve that link to the past, that unity with the rest of us.
As to the next incarnation of the Saltire, I would love to personally either create or help to create the next world traveler, and it will be the property of this forum and everyone on it, to be retired when no one wants to host it any longer!

Actually, it was my grandfather, and in masonic funeral rites, the apron is traditionally thrown into the grave on top of the coffin, not worn by the brother. And not every mason has those funeral rites, by the way.

By the way, the Saltire was not around when I joined XMTS back in June, 2004, nor was it apart of the forum when Hank first created it six months before that. I think Zardoz's comments about the creation of an "sacred relic" are spot on here.

Your last sentence also troubles me a bit; it seems to me you should care more why Jamie chose to leave the forum, or at least be less active, than to ensure that an iron grip is kept on something. As someone else mentioned, the real heart of Xmarks is its members, not a wooden airship.

T.

[Raphael]

Not angry. Just trying to point out that this reminds me of a little kid that takes his soccer ball home because he didn't like losing a game. Basically ruining it for the rest of the kids until they find another ball. Seems a little selfish. Really isn't a big deal, and didn't mean to make it one. Let's figure out what the new "ball" should be, and move on. I know there are already other posts discussing this now. Enough said.

If you don't know Panache and don't know why he is no longer actively participate in this forum, you have no right to say anything bad about his decision. You may not agree with it, but that's too bad.

I would have send you a PM to discuss it, but since you posted your thoughts to the public, I will have to post my thoughts to the public as well. I hope that you guys will fun about your new balls.

[A Hay]

I've been following the discussion for the last few days and would like to share some thoughts for those who might be interested. Of course, if you don't want to read further, you can exit here.

Many years ago I had the opportunity to attend a week long group seminar at the Menninger Clinic in Topeka, Kansas. For those who might not know, the Menninger Clinic is devoted to mental health understanding and care, at least at that time. They also shared their knowledge through these seminars.
At the end of the week, each of us was given a marble egg. Each was the same size and shape, but the colors of the marble stone were different. Each was unique. The gift was that through the week we had come to know about the other seminar members. We were all human beings, but each of us was unique in our experiences and our outlooks on life. We gained new friends, and problably met some folks that we were glad to get away from!
I've kept that egg and considered the lessons learned therefrom for over 30 years.

What does the Egg have to do with the Saltire?

From the posts it seems that some are most concerned about whether Jamie had the right to withdraw it and whether this reflects poorly on his character. Others believe it was his right to do so and stand up for him. Still others could care less.

Another topic seems to be should we have a "new Saltire" or equivalent and if so how to choose what it should be. Some say aye and some say wait, don't rush ahead too soon.

The parallel between the Egg and this subject seems to me that we all have come to this forum with some common interests, although not necessarily the same interests. But like any group, we don't all think alike (like the marbling of the Egg).

The discussion so far also seems to be like the process of grieving (I'm sure Riverkilt could give some insght here on that subject, if he chose to)

I think a discussion of the topics are healthy, as long as they are civil. It is sort of like Brainstorming with new ideas coming out of the presentation of others. I would hope that some consensus will be forthcoming and those who want to move forward with a new symbol will be allowed to do so while those who want to wait or not participate in that aspect of the forum will respect that decision.

For myself, I'm content to be an egg in the carton of this forum and enjoy the X Marks the Scot comradship. I have my own opinions on these subjects, but I'll express them at a different time. This post was not intended to make value judgements on any one. But I think sometimes being aware of the process of human interaction is as productive and as interesting as the subject under discussion.

Respectfully,

Tom
A_Hay!

[artificer]

...

The parallel between the Egg and this subject seems to me that we all have come to this forum with some common interests, although not necessarily the same interests. But like any group, we don't all think alike (like the marbling of the Egg).

The discussion so far also seems to be like the process of grieving (I'm sure Riverkilt could give some insght here on that subject, if he chose to)
...

For myself, I'm content to be an egg in the carton of this forum and enjoy the X Marks the Scot comradship. I have my own opinions on these subjects, but I'll express them at a different time. This post was not intended to make value judgements on any one. But I think sometimes being aware of the process of human interaction is as productive and as interesting as the subject under discussion.

Respectfully,

Tom
A_Hay!

Well said, Tom. You really are "a good egg"
ith: