Clan Tartan Appropriateness

[tripleblessed]

For PEEDYC: The quote on the link didn't survive submitting the post.

The link did not find the page. I'd like to read it.

The 12th Duke of Argyll stated that there are only 4 Campbell tartans: Ancient, which he wore, and those of Breadalbane, Cawdor, and Loudoun. His son, the 13th Duke, current chief of the name and arms of Campbell, and Scotland's senior peer, quotes his father on this matter. He does say that he knows of no reason not to wear those others created by weavers, but if your intent is to indicate connection to the clan you will follow his example.

[Jock Scot]

I quite agree that the Clan Chief is the final arbiter over what is, or isn't the Clan tartan.

I know that it is a bit of a shock to many to discover that some Clan tartans are only a few years old, or only, at best, some 200 years old. Added to that, to then discover that there is considerable doubt over its authenticity due to the bogus claims of a brace of brothers is confusing and disheartening to some. However when all said and done the then Chief of the Clan has chosen it, he has spoken, that is how it is, and when added to the long and often grizzly history of Scotland peppered with almost daily skulduggery of one sort or another, it is all rather true to form and in its way, rather quaint and we really should not get too wound up about the finer points with the history of a particular tartan.

We Scots really don't give this Clan thing----tartan thing too much thought,on the whole we know the form about the Clan, its history, which is not necessarily the same as Clan tartan history, but still part of it. We do what we do, we think what we think and regard "our" tartan rather like a club colours rather than anything else.

[creagdhubh]

I quite agree that the Clan Chief is the final arbiter over what is, or isn't the Clan tartan.

I know that it is a bit of a shock to many to discover that some Clan tartans are only a few years old, or only, at best, some 200 years old. Added to that, to then discover that there is considerable doubt over its authenticity due to the bogus claims of a brace of brothers is confusing and disheartening to some. However when all said and done the then Chief of the Clan has chosen it, he has spoken, that is how it is, and when added to the long and often grizzly history of Scotland peppered with almost daily skulduggery of one sort or another, it is all rather true to form and in its way, rather quaint and we really should not get too wound up about the finer points with the history of a particular tartan.

We Scots really don't give this Clan thing----tartan thing too much thought,on the whole we know the form about the Clan, its history, which is not necessarily the same as Clan tartan history, but still part of it. We do what we do, we think what we think and regard "our" tartan rather like a club colours rather than anything else.

Well stated Jock, and I tend to agree with you, as well as with what tripleblessed mentioned above. For me, whatever Cluny decides as far as Macpherson tartans, is what goes, and is what I adhere to. Many Macpherson folk will also wear the Clan Chattan tartan, as the Macphersons were once (and in my opinion still should be - not Mackintosh - this is another topic all together ) Chiefs of the Clan Chattan Confederacy, and 'our race' were inherent followers of St. Cattan.

Slainte,

[Gael Ridire]

Wow, eight pages later my 2 bits:

If one chooses a certain tartan because they like it then that is just fine! Does wearing such tartan give the impression of being connected to that clan, yes. But hey, wear whatever tartan you like! Just don't state that you have a "right" to wear it. Those who have a "right" are clan members period. But to say you wear it to honor a forefather/mother then that's cool!

When I first got into my Scottish ancestry I wore the closest lineage I could trace back to Scotland - Kennedy. I wrote to be recognized by the clan chief, and was. But in time (years) it bothered me that my surname wasn't that of the clan even though I was a recognized member. When I became an Irish armiger and wrote to tell the chief, his reply was not to mix my Irish arms with his tartan. Okay. Years pasted, politics got involved with the American society leadership and I left.

Organized the O'Brien Clan and met with the clan chief who showed me that a tartan had been designed by an O'Brien downunder. However he wouldn't authorize it because tartan is not worn by the Irish in a kilt. Now I found a mill in the UK that does an ancient version of the O'Brien tartan which I dearly love and to have an 8 yrd kilt made would cost me $900 - yikes!!!!!

Recently I found sites about the PV kilts, and find this cost accepting. Face it, most only wear the kilt a few times a year. Pretty expensive for college students (my three kids & spouses). Problem with the PV kilts, the range is terrible!!! Enter the district or national tartans. I really like the Irish nation tartan! It honors my Irish heritage, yet the tartan honors my Scottish heritage, and various things are available in it too. And there's no chief to tell me what I can and can't do concerning its use (lets face it why declare allegiance to a clan chief if not willing to follow his counsel?). I'm waiting on the family to make a choice, and it may be years!!! Meantime, my one son-in-law who is Slavic by blood, attended a music fest where a vendor was selling Sport Kilts, being able to afford one, he bought the Black Stewart because he liked it. However, my wife's lienage descends from the first Stewart to America, Duncan Stewart who was banished to New England in 1653 as a P.O.W. So my wife thinks the family tartan is now the Black Stewart. One good point is the sett can be found in cotton at the fabric stores. So to wear it in honor of Duncan Stewart & it can be obtained cheaply - Hmmmm?

[O'Callaghan]

Wow, eight pages later my 2 bits:

If one chooses a certain tartan because they like it then that is just fine! Does wearing such tartan give the impression of being connected to that clan, yes. But hey, wear whatever tartan you like! Just don't state that you have a "right" to wear it. Those who have a "right" are clan members period. But to say you wear it to honor a forefather/mother then that's cool!

When I first got into my Scottish ancestry I wore the closest lineage I could trace back to Scotland - Kennedy. I wrote to be recognized by the clan chief, and was. But in time (years) it bothered me that my surname wasn't that of the clan even though I was a recognized member. When I became an Irish armiger and wrote to tell the chief, his reply was not to mix my Irish arms with his tartan. Okay. Years pasted, politics got involved with the American society leadership and I left.

Organized the O'Brien Clan and met with the clan chief who showed me that a tartan had been designed by an O'Brien downunder. However he wouldn't authorize it because tartan is not worn by the Irish in a kilt. Now I found a mill in the UK that does an ancient version of the O'Brien tartan which I dearly love and to have an 8 yrd kilt made would cost me $900 - yikes!!!!!

Recently I found sites about the PV kilts, and find this cost accepting. Face it, most only wear the kilt a few times a year. Pretty expensive for college students (my three kids & spouses). Problem with the PV kilts, the range is terrible!!! Enter the district or national tartans. I really like the Irish nation tartan! It honors my Irish heritage, yet the tartan honors my Scottish heritage, and various things are available in it too. And there's no chief to tell me what I can and can't do concerning its use (lets face it why declare allegiance to a clan chief if not willing to follow his counsel?). I'm waiting on the family to make a choice, and it may be years!!! Meantime, my one son-in-law who is Slavic by blood, attended a music fest where a vendor was selling Sport Kilts, being able to afford one, he bought the Black Stewart because he liked it. However, my wife's lienage descends from the first Stewart to America, Duncan Stewart who was banished to New England in 1653 as a P.O.W. So my wife thinks the family tartan is now the Black Stewart. One good point is the sett can be found in cotton at the fabric stores. So to wear it in honor of Duncan Stewart & it can be obtained cheaply - Hmmmm?

This is the first time I ever heard of an Irish chief even having an opinion on the tartan of his clan. I suppose this is for the very reason he gave, that Irish kilts are not traditionally tartan. Certainly, the Callaghan tartan is not recognised by the chief, and I would not really expect any Irish clan tartan to be.

The 2 sets of Irish county tartans, and the numerous national tartans that claim to represent Ireland, are nothing but the work of the tartan mills, but then so are many of the Scottish clan tartans.

In the ancient Irish form of dress, the cloaks (brat) are thought to have been tartan. It is from these that the kilt eventually derived in Scotland. Of course, the sett meant nothing, but then that was also true in Scotland for a long time after that.

The meaning of the sett comes from the clan chief in Scotland, and also from being registered, even if it is, say, the German American tartan (I'm neither German nor American, that was just an example). It is, as Jock says, a sort of club colours, and the origins, although interesting, are secondary.

[Kevin80222]

I think it is a wonderful tribute to wear a tartan in someone's honor; If a father's son were to wear the USMC tartan in respect of his father's service, I cannot think of anything more touching. Should a stepson show his love and respect for the man that accepts him and fosters him as his own by wearing his tartan, it is a grand and beautiful gesture. I would never think to question someone's choice in selecting a tartan to which they are not "truly" affiliated - it is simply a choice of fashion and I have no issue with that. I do think that should I encounter someone wearing a kilt in tartan of a dear friend as a show of loyalty and thanks for coming into their life, of a branch of their family to which they are related by marriage only but to which they feel commitment and bond, or the tartan of a military branch in order to honor their losses and service - this is this gesture that would bring a tear to my eye and make me proud to have met such a person.

I do not have my own tartan and as such wear the county tartans of Ireland - if I had my own and happened upon someone unassociated wearing my colors, I would be proud that they had been chosen - I would view their choice of my tartan with pride.

[kilted scholar]

Jay: I'm a Campbell with 3 kilts - MacBeth, Cummings and Black Watch. 
I do not own a Campbell tartan ad I am not all that interested right now.

Interestingly, according to the STA site. the Black Watch is the same sett as Campbell, but in a darker shade!

On the wider point of clan chiefs and clan tartans, the 13th Duke of Argyll only recognizes the (Ancient) Campbell tartan as a Campell tartan (apart from one or two others such as Campbell of Breadalbane, C of Loudoun and C of Cawdor belonging to different branches).

The fact that a clan chief recognizes a particular tartan or tartans as the tartan(s) of his clan is quite different from an assertion that only someone of his clan has a right to use them (whether as a tie, a blanket, a shirt or pyjama pattern or a kilt).

The former assertion means that those tartans, and those only, can rightly be called the tartans of that clan. Consequently, no user or wearer would have any basis for considering that a different tartan from those was the clan tartan.

The latter claim, if it were ever to be made, could only have substance if it were backed up by copyright restrictions, in which case the general public would not be able to get its hands on the tartan in any case.

Of course, there are a number of matters of etiquette that will govern whether, how far, when and in what situations if any, such other tartans might be used or worn ... as many other threads will indicate!

[Armstrang]

Well, I guess we all have concerns about what we are "allowed" to wear. The thing about tartans is: There are "rules", but nobody is going to whack you if you like a certain tartan that has no relation to your family or whatever guides you have.

I have a friend who just bought a Harley. Leathers, gnarly looking vests - the whole bit. If you want to know what real tartan or color enforcement is, go out there and buy some patches that say what you are, what you think is cute, and where you are from (especially), put them on your vest, and ride around your town for a while. You will meet some really interesting folks who have an opinion about your "colors". Right or wrong, that's a fact.

So, don't feel too bad about liking a tartan you aren't "entitled" to wear. No one is going to smack you and rip your vest off of your body.

All said, I wear my family tartan and the universal ones. I would not wear a significant tartan I did not earn or otherwise "belong" to.

[Detroitpete]

First off, my opinion doesn't really count for much--its just my opinion. I'm no tartan expert by a long shot. I don't give a fig what someone else wears. I'm not saying that in a disparaging way, it just never makes sense to em to worry about such things. And to get 'miffed' about what someone wears? Wow, there's a lot going on in the world and in everyone's lives, including mine, that the idea of getting miffed by something like this is extremely low on my priority list.

If I were to recognize your tartan and say, "Hey, are you a member or related to clan X?" And you said, Nope, wearing it to honor my step-dad (or someone else important to you), I'd say, "Sounds like a heck of a guy. Care to tip a pint in his honor?"

I'd do this even if you were wearing the same tartan I wear from a clan association to which I belong.

Again, just my opinion, your mileage may vary.