More on Septs

[ScotFree]

Very interesting indeed. As an historian, I find this stuff endlessly fascinating. You are certainly in a far better position to know about the Jewish communities of Scotland than I. If you have any particular books or resources you can point me to for further reading, I'd greatly appreciate it. You must have very interesting work.

[macwilkin]

Very interesting indeed. As an historian, I find this stuff endlessly fascinating. You are certainly in a far better position to know about the Jewish communities of Scotland than I. If you have any particular books or resources you can point me to for further reading, I'd greatly appreciate it. You must have very interesting work.

See the aforementioned Two Worlds by David Daiches.

T.

[Nick the DSM]

The Gilmores are not a sept of the Morrison clan, they ARE the Morrison clan. Gilmore is the original Gaelic. It was later anglicized to Morrison.

Yes, you are quite correct. I think what I had meant was that Gilmore is just another "branch" in the Morrison clan namewise. Yes, it is the origin of the clan, but I think how I meant was even that it's named Clan Morrison the name Gilmore is part of the clan names.

[gilmore]

I did a search for "Jewish Gordon" and "Jewish tartan" in the threads here on Xmarks, and got far more results than I have time to go through. As I mentioned earlier, this was discussed in 3 or more threads some years ago here, and in the course of them, one of the X Markers whose name escapes me, from Glasgow and of Jewish descent who grew up in what is or was the Jewish section of that city, mentioned that it was so common that when he saw some one wearing a Gordon tartan kilt there, he assumed they were Jewish. What is his name? Is he still active on X Marks? He married and American and moved to Montana, I believe it was. I enjoyed reading his posts.

In addition to the stories mentioned in this thread about the adoption of the Gordon name by Jews, there is another, that one of the Marquesses of Huntley established a scholarship, I believe it was, for Jews.

As to the allegedly official Jewish tartan that the good rabbi is promoting, it has been the subject of controversy since its beginning. Concurrent with, or just before, his introduction of it, a Jewish British magazine ran a contest for a Jewish tartan, and none of the 3 finalist choices were his. I remember I got the impression at the time that there was more to the dispute as to what should be an "official" Jewish tartan than met the eye.

One of the problems mentioned with an allegedly official Jewish tartan is that there is no governing authority---no chief of a clan, no legislative body, no general synod, no pope, no chief rabbi, etc----for Judaism or for Jews who could make the decision as to what tartan should be official, as is the custom. The rabbi in question seems to be of the opinion that merely registering his tartan with the STA is sufficient. Of course it isn't.

[MacSpadger]

I did a search for "Jewish Gordon" and "Jewish tartan" in the threads here on Xmarks, and got far more results than I have time to go through. As I mentioned earlier, this was discussed in 3 or more threads some years ago here, and in the course of them, one of the X Markers whose name escapes me, from Glasgow and of Jewish descent who grew up in what is or was the Jewish section of that city, mentioned that it was so common that when he saw some one wearing a Gordon tartan kilt there, he assumed they were Jewish. What is his name? Is he still active on X Marks? He married and American and moved to Montana, I believe it was. I enjoyed reading his posts.

Yes, I believe I have found those by searching too, an ex Moderator called Arlen who appears to have provided the first reference to Jews wearing Gordon tartan in Glasgow. If only he knew what would begin from an innocent post.............

Chipping in a bit late...
I live just next to the highest Jewish population in Scotland. It's not at all uncommon to see folk wearing matching Kilts and Kippot to weddings or Bar Mitvahs.
I knew a folk folk when I was in School who would wear the Gordon tartan as in some Jewish communities Gordon is a popular surname. (There are many stories of why.)

But I have not found any of the photographs you previously mentioned. If they are evidence of the widespread wearing of Gordon tartan, that would be fantastic, although of course it would raise more questions than answers in this neck of the woods.
Why would a tartan developed in Aberdeen in the late 1700's specifically for a British Army regiment from the North East of Scotland , and to offically indentify that regiment, be associated with Jews living in Glasgow in the South West of Scotland?
I totally agree with Arlen that you can see matching Kilts and Kippot worn to weddings or Bar Mitvahs, (just as immigrant Sikhs wear matching turbans and kilts to Glasgow weddings), but have not seen any Gordon tartan with my own eyes, but that doesn't mean anything other than times may have changed. I see mainly the modern purple hued fashion tartans, Heritage of Scotland, etc.
Online searches regarding the wearing of Gordon tartan by Jews in Glasgow from other forums, blogs, online publications, seem to lead back to this forum and this forum only, one thread in particular, and the one magazine reference I found to Jews in Glasgow wearing Gordon tartan, after enquiry, also took this information from this forum.
Any solid or pictorial evidence would be fantastic. I have begun local enquiry here, where a vast amount of archive exists, in both the museums and the University, Scotland and Glasgow have always been fairly meticulous in record keeping, and there is a vast photographic archive too, in several places in Glasgow.
Lord George Gordon, by the way, is practically unknown in Scotland. He was born in England, lived in England, had a brief time in Holland while trying to avoid arrest, was imprisoned in England, converted to Judaism while in prison in England, died in England. A very English story, to my Caledonian eyes anyway. His life story is at odds with what is written in the aforementioned "Between Two Worlds" by Benjamin Gordon, in which is stated that Gordon travelled to places such as Lithuania where "Parents came to use his name when blessing their sons, and many families adopted his name as a surname. It was thus that my grandfather changed Gordomy to Gordon." As Gordon was an Englishman, I doubt it will be easy to find records regarding his travel, (apart from his attempts to avoid prison), without help for across the border. At the moment, there appears to be no evidence or record, hearsay or otherwise, of him ever having visited Scotland, it's very unlikely that he ever wore a kilt.

A lot of the other stuff out there, that the Gordons were originally Jewish, the founding of Aberdeen University by the Duke of Gordon with a clause that Jews must be included in the enrollment, are just nonsense. The Gordons were famously, some might say aggressively, Catholic, and this really got them into a lot of strife.
Aberdeen University was founded in 1495 by Bishop Elphinstone, under Papal Bull by the Pope, at that time Pope Alexander VI. Until the Reformation, it was entirely Roman Catholic in it's staff, teachings and pupils. Maybe there has been some confusion with Robert Gordon University. This was founded in the 18th century by Robert Gordon, who was a merchant and trader who made a fortune in Baltic trade and used his money to found the beginnings of the RGU. He was no aristocrat, however, he was a hard working trader who gave his money to establish fair care and education for "poor boys". No mention of Jews, but, as I have said, Aberdeen is at the opposite end of Scotland from Glasgow, so, no Glasgow connection either.

If I find any evidence it will make a striking addition to a significant cultural display currently ongoing. I do, at this point, feel that any further evidence, (if any), will be found in Glasgow itself, rather than online or in Aberdeen. It's common sense, really.

[gilmore]

Yes, it was Arlen.

I did not say that any of these stories---but one---are anything but apocryphal. To my ear few have the ring of historical accuracy, but origin myths take on a life of their own, and have a role in defining how people think of themselves today, as I am sure a student of Scots history is well aware. The one story that I have seen validated as literally true was in an autobiography of a Jewish Gordon whose father or grandfather was named for the town Grodno in what is now Lithuania.

Most Jews in the Tsarist empire did not have surnames until the government decided they were a good idea for military conscription servants and cannon fodder and early death) and taxation records in the early 19th Century. However, the collection of taxes and drafting of conscripts was left to the leaders of the local Jewish communities, largely, who were usually easier on their own relatives than on others. Consequently, "Russian" Jews moved from town to town and changed their surnames more often than most, having developed little attachment to them.
(Traditional Jewish naming practice was for a son to take only his father's name, as in "Shmuel ben Zvi," Samuel the son of Zvi in English.)

After the pogroms of 1880 and 1905 many fled Russia to the UK and elsewhere, and took names that were convenient. Some in England became Rothschilds and were confused with the banking family, and not always accidentally. This still goes on today of course. Bob Dylan was born Robert Zimmerman.

And so some Jews who came to Scotland took the name Gordon. My guess, of course, is that it is from that connection that Jewish Scots wore kilts of the Gordon tartan, not with the house of Gordon, Lord George Gordon, etc.

[Mike_Oettle]

It is actually ironic that we speak today about Russian Jews, since in the Russian Empire, Jews were forbidden to set foot in Russia proper. They were settled on the western periphery, in countries like Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Belarus and Ukraine.
Only when public order in the Empire began to break down did Jews find their way to Moscow in numbers, where many took part in the revolution of 1916.
They were mostly of German origin – that is to say, they spoke Yiddish and referred to themselves (when distinguishing themselves from other Jews) as Ashkenazim.
The name Ashkenaz appears in the Bible as a descendant of Noah, and in the Middle Ages the name was attached to Jews living in Germany.
The word Yiddish is derived from judisc diutsc (Jewish German) and refers to the German dialect originally spoken by Jews living in the Rhineland in the late Middle Ages. It is still identifiably German, but it was written with Hebrew letters and included many Hebrew loanwords.
During the 19th century a great many of these “Russian” Jews migrated to western Europe and places further afield to escape the constant pogroms that blighted their life under the Tsars.
I am given to understand that a fair number of Jews who settled in Britain did so under sponsorship from Scottish noblemen, including the Duke of Gordon. In gratitude, many of them adopted the name of their sponsor. This is not to discount the derivation of Jewish Gordons’ surnames from other sources.
Almost all the Jews who settled in South Africa during the 19th century came from the Russian Empire; in fact well over 90% were from a small area close to the Lithuanian/Latvian border. Their communities of origin all suffered under Nazi occupation during the Second World War: not a single Jew lives in those towns today. Most died in places like Auschwitz.
Many of the Jews who came to South Africa first lived in Britain, and acquired English speech. So when they set up in business in South Africa, they were identified (together with the English, Scots, Welsh and Irish who also were in business in this country) as “English” by the Boers.
The highest concentration of such “English” where Boer farmers encountered them was in Pretoria (although there were probably more in Johannesburg); consequently Pretoria was known (despite its status as capital of the Zuid Afrikaansche Republiek) as die Engelse stad (the English city).
My mother’s family was Pretoria English (of the non-Jewish variety). Her father’s parents were from England; her mother’s father was a Scot.

But this thread was originally about septs.
My Scottish great-grandfather was a Fotheringham. This surname is found on the list of “septs” of Clan Lindsay. I doubt whether the Lindsays actually use the term sept.
I do know that the surname Fotheringham was adopted by men who went to Scotland from Huntingdon during the century or so when that English earldom was held by members of the Scottish royal family – King David I was Earl of Huntingdon when he decided to return home to lay claim to the Scottish crown.
“Fotheringham” derives from the royal residence the House of Fotheringhay. There is also a village of that name in Lindsay country.
As I said in my letter to the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres (the chief of Clan Lindsay) when I requested permission to wear the Lindsay tartan, I do not know whether there is a blood connection between the Fotheringhams and the Lindsays, but I am satisfied with knowing that the Fotheringhams acknowledge Lord Crawford as their chief.
The Lindsays also have their origin in Huntingdon, the first Scottish Lindsay having gone north with Prince David (as he was then).
While I know very little about my mother’s grandfather, I know enough to be certain that he belonged to the Lindsay clan, and that it is right and proper for me to wear that clan’s tartan.
It is a Lowland clan, and so obviously did not wear tartan at all before the Proscription, but its use of tartan and kilts is by now well established.
I do have a Highland connection through great-grandfather Fotheringham: he used to tell his children that his mother was a MacGregor. So perhaps at some point I will also acquire a kilt in MacGregor tartan.
I cannot claim membership of Clan Gregor (since I have identified with Clan Lindsay), but I am proud of that Highland connection nonetheless.
Regards,
Mike

[MacSpadger]

I am given to understand that a fair number of Jews who settled in Britain did so under sponsorship from Scottish noblemen, including the Duke of Gordon. In gratitude, many of them adopted the name of their sponsor. This is not to discount the derivation of Jewish Gordons’ surnames from other sources.

This is something of which I have found no evidence, and I've been through archives in Glasgow, Aberdeen University and even the Gordon archive at Huntly. However, I have had a very, very productive weekend in a different direction which has sent me off on what I think will be an interesting journey, including a possible visit to Lithuania!
But, the short story is that Gordon also appears to have been a fairly common Jewish surname in Vilna, Lithuania, and Bialystok, Northern Poland. These Jewish Gordons had no connection with the Scottish Gordons, but when some immigrated to Glasgow in the late 1800's and their 20th century offspring began joining organisations such as the ones I've listed previously, the ones named Gordon naturally took up the Gordon tartan. This would have been easy to do, after all Scotland's main kiltmaker at the time was Thomas Gordon and Sons in Glasgow. The name Gordon has existed in the Litvak people for at least a few centuries and is well documentated in the areas formerly covered by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
I feel very happy at the moment, having had some great help over the whole weekend from someone from a very different background from me, with no interest in kilts, etc, but who simply wanted to help a fellow human being.

[Grizzly]

I feel very happy at the moment, having had some great help over the whole weekend from someone from a very different background from me, with no interest in kilts, etc, but who simply wanted to help a fellow human being.

A very good lesson for us all there. Excellent sentiment.

[EagleJCS]

Almost all the Jews who settled in South Africa during the 19th century came from the Russian Empire; in fact well over 90% were from a small area close to the Lithuanian/Latvian border. Their communities of origin all suffered under Nazi occupation during the Second World War: not a single Jew lives in those towns today. Most died in places like Auschwitz.

This is waayyyy OT, but historically pertinent:
Mike,
A lot of Eastern European Jews didn't make it to a concentration camp. In an episode of the NBC show "Who Do You Think You Are" - sponsored by Ancestry.com - which traces celebrities' family roots (with their active cooperation), Rashida Jones discovers her mother's (Jewish) family was Latvian, and many of the Jews in their hometown were taken to the forest outside town, shot, and buried in a mass grave. I have also read reports of many Ukranian Jews meeting a similar fate - just taken to the nearby woods, shot and buried.


You may be able to watch the episode online. (We can here in the US, but I don't know about international availability.)

[/offtopic]

Many Borders clans have fewer 'septs' listed. (From what I've been told, "clans" as we understand them now were more of a Highlands 'thing'). In the Borders, they tend to think more along the lines of 'associated families' rather than formal 'clans', and a lot more people adopted (or were assigned) the surname of their landlord when a surname became necessary.