What would you do?

[be da veva]

True, some of these companies have registered as members here, but none are active advertisers.

[Duke of Delrio]

Oh, frankly I don't give a d@#n what the law says. The law sets only a minimum standard of acceptable conduct . . . . usually abysmally low. I can operate my vehicle in a perfectly legal manner and still be a driver with whom you would not wish to share the road . . . if you had a choice.

Steve's questions were not legal ones; they were soliciting personal opinions regarding business conduct by advertisers or potential advertisers within this forum. I do not need a degree in international law to answer them, in that I am answering for myself. No, I would not purchase a product from a company or from a person who willfully and knowingly misrepresents to me . . . . anything about that product or the company selling it. That extends to photos, degree of service, and purported originality/authenticity of the product. My answer to that question, in all its permutations, is no. My answer would be the same without regard to whether the company advertised here.

I have had nothing but high quality and great service when dealing with advertisers on ths forum. I would hope they are joined in future by those conducting business on the same playing field . . . all playing by the same rules. Those rules are set and maintained by the forum owner, and as far as I can see, the rules and that owner have served the membership extremely well.

Let us not strive for legal conformance or even ethical clarity. Let us strive for excellence in business conduct in the same way and for the same reason that we strive for civililty here. Let those who would seek less than excellence and other than civility find their search satisfied elsewhere.

The sound you now hear is the creaking of my bones as I climb back down from my soapbox.

[Steve Ashton]

be da veva, there are some of our current advertisers who deal with products not made in Scotland

Probably the best known is Stillwater Kilts. Jerry makes no bones that his products are made in Pakistan. Jerry would be my benchmark when it comes to an ethical business dealing in Pakistani products. This was not necessarily so when Jerry first came to X Marks but now I would trust Jerry to conduct an ethical business without a doubt.

Celtic Croft and Buy-a-kilt also have products from other countries.
Our newest advertiser, UT Kilts, is a re-seller of exclusively Pakistani made goods.

[davidlpope]

be da veva, there are some of our current advertisers who deal with products not made in Scotland

Probably the best known is Stillwater Kilts. Jerry makes no bones that his products are made in Pakistan. Jerry would be my benchmark when it comes to an ethical business dealing in Pakistani products. This was not necessarily so when Jerry first came to X Marks but now I would trust Jerry to conduct an ethical business without a doubt.

Celtic Croft and Buy-a-kilt also have products from other countries.
Our newest advertiser, UT Kilts, is a re-seller of exclusively Pakistani made goods.

My preference would be to require X-Marks advertisers to be "creators" of products- kiltmakers, sporranmakers, sgian dubh makers- and not have any "middlemen" or resellers allowed as advertisers. The only exception I would make is for the Tartans Museum, due to their charitable purpose and the fact that their giftshop allows them to continue this good work.

[Kylahullu]

My preference would be to require X-Marks advertisers to be "creators" of products- kiltmakers, sporranmakers, sgian dubh makers- and not have any "middlemen" or resellers allowed as advertisers. The only exception I would make is for the Tartans Museum, due to their charitable purpose and the fact that their giftshop allows them to continue this good work.

It is good to have the "creators" here, but if all the "middlemen" and resellers are excluded, this forum (or its set of advertisers) would be less than it can be. In the net there are too many resellers who do not meet 'the minimum ethical level' so why not let some of those who do meet 'the level' advertise here?

I would not have a kilt at all if there were no resellers in the net. I would not be considering 'do I have enough use for an other kilt to order one', if I did not have my budget 8yd kilt from Buy-a-kilt (the reseller). I like to think I am not the only one who like to start kilting with a smaller investment and still know that you get value for your money. I like to think that when buying from an advertiser here I will get an 'use once and throw away' -item only if it is clearly told to be and sold as 'use once and throw away' -item.

[be da veva]

I know that some of the advertisers were selling products not made in scotland. SWK being one. I also know that some of the companies being run from Pakistan have become members here and are not advertisers here. My comments were aimed at the latter ones.

I have to admit that I went to see the ones you mentionned just now and the last one has pictures that I remember seeing elsewhere. (Even a few pics of members here???)

To be completely frank, I wouldn't buy a kilt from them (''universal'' them, not just individually). I've tried this version of kilts and find them lacking in many ways. I kept one to play paintball with because I can throw it in the washing machine without having a stroke...

[tpa]

. I kept one to play paintball with because I can throw it in the washing machine without having a stroke...

Ther you have the crux of the matter with regard to cheap kilts. I have a couple I can wear for working in, knocking around the house and office work and would much rather wear them than trousers. Sure they don't feel the same as there is a lot less weight in the pleats; but if the choice is trousers or cheap kilt, then the kilt wins every time. I still would not buy from a known unethical business though.

[HarveyH]

As this thread has progressed it has developed into an interesting exploration of business and personal ethics.

Some have suggested that the look to X-Marks as some kind of seal of approval - even to the extent of only buying from those who advertise here. But there are any number of highly ethical makers and craftsmen who could not afford to advertise (few small craftsmen in the UK could), that is why the reliance on the personal judgement of members in the forum is, perhaps, a better judge of quality than whether or not people can afford to pay for advertising.

It might help us, the ordinary members of X Marks, understand the ethics here if we knew what the advertising rates are. I have not asked Steve but the site suggests that the rates are only available on application. Other sites I know make clear their rates so that the financial power of contributors can be judged.

In my own purchasing I want to know that a fair wage is paid to those who I buy goods from. By the time a kilt maker has paid for 8 yards of cloth and then hand sews a traditional kilt, the cost of that garment is never going to be much less than £400 to £500 if the maker is to get anything like £8 or £9 pound per hour wage - in the UK that is still a low wage. If I buy a kilt imported from overseas I want to know that the makers in the country of origin are being paid a living wage. It is really difficult to see how that is the case with some of the prices being quoted on certain sites - and I would not do business with them on that basis alone.

So if a kilt or sporran cost me money and I have to save up for it, but I then know it is of the highest quality and the maker is able to make a living from the purchase - well that is a good thing.

I don't think I need to spell out my answers to Steve's original questions - you will be able to discern my answers.

[be da veva]

Ther you have the crux of the matter with regard to cheap kilts. I have a couple I can wear for working in, knocking around the house and office work and would much rather wear them than trousers. Sure they don't feel the same as there is a lot less weight in the pleats; but if the choice is trousers or cheap kilt, then the kilt wins every time. I still would not buy from a known unethical business though.

I've been lucky enough to get wool kilts in my size on gumtree when I started out. Sure, they were handmade for someone else, but they fit me almost perfectly. After that I bought some off the rack in PV thinking I'd wear those to work in the yard and such. But no, I prefer the wool tank to fool around with. Sure, I sweat in it, but I wash it in the bath. Went to cuba and the Dominican Rep. and prefered wearing my wool kilts instead of my PVs.

[Aussie_Don]

Would everyone please understand that my reason for asking these questions is not that I need more money. I am not out beating the bushes for more advertisers. In fact I don't seek out advertisers at all.

I would much prefer that advertisers come here because they realize that if you are in the kilt business this is the place to be.

Thank you for the suggestions and offers to help financially with paid memberships but that is not what this thread is about either. I have never considered, and can think of no way, that paid memberships will ever be a part of X Marks.

The single best way to support this community is by being an active and participating member. Support those who advertise here when you can with your dollars, but support your fellow members with your posts.

My only reason for starting this thread is to get a better feeling for where you think the future of the forum should be.

Of course I could accept Google ads. I could also accept any of the companies that do approach me on an almost weekly basis. So I started this thread to gauge your feelings on what is important to you when it comes to accepting a new or continuing an existing advertiser.



As this forum has grown over the years it has become a 'voice' in the kilt world. I know for a fact that all of the big manufacturers and suppliers and weavers do know about us. They may not be advertisers here but almost all of them have one company representative who is a member here.
The world is listening.

I just need to know what you feel you want our voice to say.




I will have to give some more thought to a Donate button. There have been more than a few cases where a member had his kilt stolen or where a kilt was given to a member in a "Pay-it-forward" way.
There is a built in feature of the vBulletin software for this.
Perhaps a member supported program that would put aside a small "kitty" of funds to help out a fellow member would have merit. I owe it to all of you first to find a way to insure that any such 'kitty' were handled in a responsible and transparent manner.

Probably the most important thought for me is that a "Code of Ethics for X-Marks Advertisers" might
be worth thinking about. And a mechanism for enforcing the code which unfortunately gets really
messy. (How do you handle complaints? What about an appeal mechanism? Ensuring that the forum is
safe from action for libel, etc.) We, sort of, have this at the moment, but unofficially.

As some others have commented, I joined after I had bought my first kilt. I was, however happy to see
that the company that I'd bought from is an X-Marks advertiser. It is an endorsement of a company to
see other (in many cases much more knowledgeable) persons agreeing that a company does a good job
of providing a reasonable quality/price equation.

I'd like to buy from the the people who outfit the Duke of Rothesay, but my sporran is not that deep.
So I am sensitive to price, but I definitely prefer to get reasonable value at whatever price.

To sum up,

1. Keep going the way things are
2. Consider (cautiously) a code of ethics for advertisers
3. Consider mechanisms for dealing with the problem of advertisers with (a lot of) disgruntled customers

Just my tupence in the pot.

-Don