Attitudes To The Kilt.

[highlandtide]

You are right.

So Mac did you live in Scotland and if yes why did you leave?

[Verlyn]

While I don't necessarily agree with Mac's OPINIONS and presentation, I think he has made it clear that they are his opinions. Being the neophyte that I am, I have kept quiet to try and learn something, but I do have to agree with Hank that this has been a most interesting thread and I've gotten a lot out of it. I kept quiet for a long time because I was interested.

For my situation, I'm curious if he would consider me entitled to wear the clan Kilt from my surname. Not a drop of Scot blood in me; Danish, German and Indian. However, my stepfather adopted me when I was 2 and treated me as his own flesh and blood. When I got interested in geneology, he told me all he knew was his mother's and grandmother's maiden names (Irish) and that his father (who he never knew) was Scot and other descent. My research, so far, has led me to believe what he knew was probably correct, but that is in question since spellings of names and wholesale name changes were inconsistent at best at the immigration points. Unfortunately, he passed away a long time ago and any leads for his family tree have been like finding dinosaur bones.

I'm having a Philabeg made by Rocky and Kelly in Clan Hay (Ancient) because I believe that is the source of my "dad's" name. If kilts are used at my daughter's wedding (she's still deciding), she's requested that I wear the clan Hay in honor of the family.

There is no blood, but I look at this as a small way I can honor the man who took me as his own flesh and blood. Will my mind change on other's opinions? Nope. The Clan Hay folks were thrilled when I sent an e-mail asking questions about the family name and provided more leads than I've been able to follow AND some sources to get nice kilts made since I was getting into the heritage. Their opinion and those of the other clan societies I've talked to have been pretty much what Matt has said; both in the US and Scotland. Including the the gentleman running and old bookstore in Dunoon that talked my ear off for an hour on Clans, families, fueds, etc. in Scot History. He was excited that an American was so interested and said that if that's my name, that's my clan no matter how it happened. If he's still alive, I'm sure he's over 100 by now.

So I guess I'm a Scot wannabe since daddy was pretty sure he was Scot/Irish and I owe a lot to him but have no Scot blood. Of course, last I checked, we all bleed red and there are limited numbers of blood types.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I've found this thread interesting and educational.

[KMacT]

While I don't necessarily agree with Mac's OPINIONS and presentation, I think he has made it clear that they are his opinions.

You may be correct, but my impression of his earlier emails (in this topic and others) has not been so. Maybe he was not being articulate, as he has claimed at times (and I am certainly guilty of that on ocassion), but in response to an American speaking about adopting new kilt traditions, Mac replied by saying:

"..we're talking about a Scottish garment, so the country of origin would (rightly) be where we look to for the tradition. You don't "adopt new traditions", you water down the true traditions and then suggest that the new way is the correct way. ...the traditions behind wearing a kilt are set in Scotland, and not anywhere else." [emphasis added]

To me, this is illustrative of an approach that is inconsistent with one making it clear that opinions held are only ones own. It's not an inclusive approach, but instead, an exclusive one. It's not descriptive, but rather, proscriptive. Traditions developed outside Scotland are not "true" nor "correct." Only in Scotland, he says. What you or I do elsewhere cannot form part of the tradition of the kilt.

Or maybe he meant to say something else.

Kevin

[cavscout]

There's plenty of clans that have done their utmost to increase membership (perhaps by ignoring the rules?). The "Boll of Meal" Frasers come to mind.

For someone preaching respect for tradition and opinion of others I'll thank you to show respect for clans/families.

Philabeg is right on when he brands you a snob. If you have some information to shed on why you hold the Frasers in such low esteem please share this. With all due respect to Colin and anyone else who shares the Mackenzie lineage Mac Coinneach is a terrible representation of that clan.

[Colin]

I don't think it was slight against the Frasers http://www.clanfraser.ca/canada.htm

The Risings of 1715 and 1745 resulted in hundreds of Jacobite prisoners
being transported as indentured servants to the American colonies and the
West Indies. For the Frasers, these were tumultuous times, creating a chain
of events which would reach far beyond the shores of Scotland. For Simon
Fraser, 18th MacShimi [1668-1747], whose support of the Hanovarians in 1715
had finally confirmed his right to the peerage as 11th Lord Lovat, but whose
vision of a Jacobite dukedom in his 80s was very appealing, the 1745 Rising
presented a dilemma.


The 17th Lord Lovat and 24th MacShimi [1911-1995] in the preface to the
Frasers of Lovat from the Muster Roll of Prince Charles Edward Stuart's Army
1745-46 [1984] comments:


"By 1730 Simon Fraser was officially recognised as the 11th Lord Lovat.
Undeniably vain, bold, bad and ambitious, he was nevertheless a brilliant
and understanding chief. To strengthen his position in the Highlands Lovat
enlarged his clan by taking in numerous 'Boll of Meal' Frasers - men who
changed their name in return for sustenance. Their descendants, all
Frasers, are known around Beauly to this day.


In 1745 after much double dealing the wily chief, "Simon the Fox", as he was
known, mustered the Frasers to support the Prince. They fought at the
Battle of Falkirk, the inconclusive engagement on January 17th, 1746 when
the clans beat off an English army.


Three months later on that fatal day at Culloden the Frasers charged with
their right wing of the Highlanders, Camerons, Clan Chattan and the
Stewarts. Their casualties were severe, reckoned as high as 250 killed.
Their colonel, Charles Fraser, Ygr., of Inverallochy, while lying grievously
wounded on the moor, was shot in cold blood at the order of Butcher
Cumberland, or as some say, of General Hawley. The Hanovarian A.D.C., the
future General Wolfe, had previously refused to act as executioner. There
is a charming story that twelve years later on the Heights of Abraham
outside Quebec, Wolfe fell mortally wounded into the arms of a Fraser
Highlander.


After Culloden the whole Fraser country was laid waste by Hanovarian troops.
Old Simon escaped on a litter from Stratherrick but was finally captured on
an island in Loch Morar. He was taken to London, tried, forfeited and then
executed on Tower Hill in 1747, the last nobleman to be beheaded in this
country. His son, the Master of Lovat, had been cast in prison.


Some ten years later the clan rose to fight again when William Pitt advised
George II to raise new regiments from the defeated Jacobites. He records 'I
sought for valour and found it in the mountains of the North'. In 1757 the
Master of Lovat, though then possessing neither land nor money, raised a
regiment of 1500 men from the Aird and Sratherrick. As the 78th Regiment,
better known as Fraser's Highlanders, they sailed for America to fight
valiantly in 'the year of victories' and win Canada for the Crown."
Lord Lovat, Balblair, Beauly

[cavscout]

Thanks for the link and information Colin. If this was truely just a friendly colloquialism I apologize.

[Mike1]

You did not mention his name that I saw. Just curious if it is John Mallernee of Clan Henderson? That would be John Robert Mallernee, US Citizen, Official Bard of Clan Henderson residing at the Armed Forces Retirement Home in Washington, D.C.

LOL!

In your haste to simply be argumentative, you missed what Mac Coinneach said in his post. Check your information on Mr. Mallernee again, my friend. Mr. Mallernee is the appointed Bard for the Clan Henderson SOCIETY. Not Clan Henderson, but rather the Clan Henderson SOCIETY.

Bit of a difference between being a family member and being the member of a clan SOCIETY. Well, there's a bit of difference for those of us that understand the difference between the two.

Go back and read what Mac Coinneach ~actually~ said in his post -

Now, regarding Clan societies and using them for reference in things Scottish - this is something that you need to be very careful about too.

See that word "societies"?

Nevertheless, the title he holds is an official position within an "official" clan, and his word on things is taken as the gospel truth by the members of his clan society.

Gee, there it is again. Clan society.

Do you have any idea of how many clan societies are willing to make people a "clansman", just because they are still breathing and have a year's dues in their pockets? I'm not suggesting that all clan societies are less than diligent, but many are. Then again, there are those that don't seem to know the difference.

[philibeg]

OK guys, sorry if I have offended any of you, but really....don't you get my sense of humor by now? I tend, due to a Biblical upbringing and a life time studying things Baroque, to express myself in an over-the-top way. I wasn't banishing Mac from the board, something it is not in my power to do, and which I would not advocate even if it were. However, the underlying tone of this thread is one I cannot delight in!

For me the essense of the matter is as follows: Mac started out swearing up and down he didn't want to inhibit us from wearing what we like. He then did a complete about face and told us the rules of the clans forbid non-Scots from wearing tartan! He conveniently ignored the opinions of a (fellow?) Scot on the board (Daz) when they didn't match his own, and proceeded to accuse Matt of speaking without knowledge and unjustly setting himself up as an authority! When confronted with fact and research contrary to his opinions, Mac then claimed that his "household" contained unwritten occult knowledge of highland traditions which only Scotsmen can understand (unless that Scotsman is named Daz, apparently!), and proceeded to call us (from behind the safety of his grandad's shadow) Scots wannabes, all the while pretending he doesn't wanna rain on our parade. He even suggests that he doesn't really support the opinions he's spouting!! So what's up, Mac, just stirring the pot?

Now really, I am not trying to gag the man. I uphold the rights of all members to express their opinions on this board, as long as they do not knowingly and unrepentantly insult others in doing so. Those of you who have read my previous posts will know what I mean. However, in this case I feel that Mac, though he started with an opinion, has swerved off sharply towards insult, first of Matt, and then of all non-Scots kilt-wearers who like traditional kilts. He's made his point, few of us agree with him, and now its getting messy.

I shall now retire in silence, but I remain,

your humble,

Philibeg

[arrogcow]

Mac talks about "traditions" and being watered down. All traditions start somewhere, and they are watered down from something. You're own tradition of who can wear a particular tartan seems to be only about 100-150 years old based on Matt's research. Not that that makes it any less important to you, just that someone started that tradition and others decided to follow it.

American Scottish societies are really big on promoting this kind of thinking as well, and look down on you if you don't have a proper clan tartan.

One of my own family traditions was that we were Scots Irish. This led me to want to learn about my heritage, and was one of the factors that led me to the kilt. Now, in the last 10 years or so, my mother (reserch librarian) decided to do our geanology. She is one of those meticulous people that if she can't see official records, she doesn't believe it. Basicaly I have to go back 11 generations before I find anyone in my family tree that is from Scotland (named "Tullous" and no one yet from Ireland). In fact I have to go back 9 generations (and to the late 1600s) to find anyone off the boat from anywhere. I do have Wilsons and Thompsons in my family tree, but they are all from Wales and England (and a matrilinial descent) so I can't wear those tartans aparently (which sucks 'cause there are about 4000 different Wilson tartans, I'd always be able to find one I liked).

On the other hand, since my family has been in the US since way before the clan tartan nonsense started, I can claim that I follow the original traditions of wearing what ever tartan is available. To that end, I have a Tank in Montegomery, and my only claim is that I had a good friend in the 8th grade who was a Montegomery.

Now, having said that, yes there are tartans I won't wear because of what they represent. For instance being an ex-army officer, I would never wear the Leatherneck tartan (or the Ring Knocker tartan for that matter, since I did not go to West Point either). But frankly unless a tartan was created by the clan, for the clan, then deal with it.

Adam

[macwilkin]

American Scottish societies are really big on promoting this kind of thinking as well, and look down on you if you don't have a proper clan tartan.

I beg to differ. Most St. Andrew's Societies in the US, the Commonwealth and other countries were started as charitable and fraternal organisations catering to the needs of recent arrivals -- that way, the Scot getting off the boat had "friends", possibly a job, and a tie to home through other Scots. Very few Scottish, Caledonian and St. Andrew's Societies focused on particular region -- Highlands, Lowlands, Borders, etc.

Yes, there are some "snobby" St. Andrew's Societies (and snobby members) just like any other type of organization, but the majority do good work, now promoting Scottish heritage events, etc.

Our St. Andrew's society does not care if you are "entitled" to wear a tartan, we like to see new members who are interested in all things Scottish.

Mike: remember that many Clan socities are chartered and organized under the authority of the Chief (but not all are), and the first clan society, the Buchanan Society, was organized in the early 1800's in Scotland, so it's not just a Scottish-American "thing".

Regards,

Todd