A question on ethics...

[ronstew]

Wouldn't it be great if all the clan chiefs and district authorities would be so clear on tartan choice as The Campbell?

Two things I note in particular. 1. He says a Campbell with an unrecognised Campbell tartan is free to continue wearing it. 2. He doesn't say anything about non-Campbells one way or the other.

I did see on the Tartans Authority site something called Stewart Campbell, which appears to be a brown Stewart tartan. I am certain that The Campbell would choke on that one!

[Riverkilt]

Yikes! What a thread!!

Don't know that there's much difference between wearing an Hawaiian shirt when I'm not Hawaiian and someone who's not Scottish wearing a kilt.

Exactly how does one determine "race" when Great Britain has been conquered and reconquered and invaded by so many peoples over the years?

Think the Saltire kilt was intended for soccer games.

I choose to wear the tartans I wear due to a family connection. But its my choice of how I spend my hard earned money - not a choice made to please or justify to others, particularly the dastardly kilt police.

My first outing in my first tank, a Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting, I was accosted by a nut case at the Mesa, Arizona Highland games, a fellow Macdonald, and told only Prince Charles had a right to wear that tartan.

Told him then the Prince should tell the mills to stop grinding it out. My family is from Skye, certainly part of the Isles.

I emailed follow ups to Clan Donald and was told in no uncertain terms that I, and anyone who chose, was entitled to wear that tartan and did I have this nut's name? They were agast that someone would "welcome" members of the clan in such a rude way and wished to speak to him about his behavior.

This year I sought him out and found he was no longer around, been squeezed out for being a troublemaker/nut case.

I do so hate the kilt police.

Can understand the cultural protection piece - but it swings both ways. Like here in the American West Native Peoples have different attitudes. Some want to guard their culture from outsiders. Others want to welcome others in to share the joy that they have. Thank God for the later.

Ron

[GlassMan]

Wow, so much has been said recently.

First off, welcome to XMarks Chris! We've discussed a lot over at Bravehearts and even though we don't always agree the discussions are always fun.

I think that when we think about Chris' comment about wool we should remember that he lives in Texas in an area with extremely hot weather that is always hot. In that environ wool really won't work at any time of year. For many on this thread, their local climate does have real seasons and get to enjoy both cool and cold weather. Poor Chris is stuck with Hot, Hotter, Hottest & Rainy as his four seasons. I spent some of my childhood in Texas and know how ghastly the weather can be during midday when even the asphalt in the roads can begin to reliquify.

As for kilts becoming more than a Scottish thing, well I'd have to both agree and disagree with that. Kilts have definitely moved beyond just the physical confines of Scotland and have gained popularity and presence around the world. But that is still because of Scots. The Scottish diaspora has invaded almost every corner of the Globe. Their presence has exposed many other peoples to kilts and lead to the kilt's adoption by many none Scots. So I would credit the greater presence of kilts not to America but to the Scottish diaspora.

[pdcorlis]

Seems like we have this discussion about every other month or so - as always - its both educational and revealing. I appreciate the high degree of civility here - I'm not sure there are a lot of places on the world weird web where this conversation could happen with such respect.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Very quickly, I believe the tartan Ronstew saw on the STA site was "Stewart CAMELL" and not "Stewart CAMPBELL." That "p" makes a big difference. In this case, the "Camell" referrs to the color -- a light brown. There is also a Thompson Camell tartan.

But on to other matters, Todd asked me to comment on personal tartans. Basically anyone can have their own tartan if they like. There is no authority behind them other than one's own opinion, but there it is.

I had woven (and recorded) a tartan called "Black MacGregor."
http://www.tartansauthority.com/web/...txtTartan=6588
(Or to see a woven sample: http://kilts.albanach.org/black_macgregor.jpg)

The man this was made for is surnamed MacGregor. He, however, personally found the usual red MacGregor tartan too bright. He really likes dark clothing. He was keen on the idea of having a unique personal tartan. We discussed a few options and ultimately decided that a very simple swap of the black and red colors of the usual MacGregor tartan would suit his purposes. He now has a kilt in it, which is more than likely the only kilt in existance in this tartan.

This is a perfect example of a "personal" tartan. It was custom made just for this one individual to wear. It's called "Black MacGregor" because it is a variation of the MacGregor tartan in black. That name is not meant to imply that it is by any means an official MacGregor tartan. Neither I, nor the wearer of the tartan, have ever suggested such.

That being said, if anyone at all wanted to have a length of this tartan woven up for their own personal use, my friend would have no problem with it. It's not a restricted personal tartan, in other words. He has no designs on keeping it to himself.

Then there are personal tartans that are actually indended for a broader family use, but there is simply no authority behind them. For example, I have recently designed, and am in the middle of making kilts in, the Brewer family tartan:
http://www.tartansauthority.com/web/...tTartan=brewer

I was contacted by a Mr. James Brewer who wished for a new tartan for his family name. As there is no recognized "head of the Brewer family" who has the ability to speak for the name and authorize an official tartan, his new tartan can only be considered a personal tartan. However, his intent was to have a tartan usable by any of the name Brewer. Over time, if it becomes very popular and generally rcognized, it may become an official family tartan through what we call "wont and usage." (In other words, there is no real authority behind it, but it is generally used and recognized by all as a family tartan). But for now, it can only officially be considered a personal tartan. But it is duly recorded that the man who commissioned the design wishes it to be available to all Brewers or variants of the name.

Hope this makes sense!
M

[David Dalglish]

Hi Everyone,
I am a scot from Glasgow, love wearing my kilt, there is no restriction on what tartan you can wear http://albanoch.org/kilt.htmi I am honoured that so many people like to wear the kilt. Pick a tartan you like & wear it with pride & look great. Happy kilt wearing EVERYONE

[pdcorlis]

Welcome David! Be sure to post a thread letting everyone know there's a new member around here - we like to pull out the welcome wagon!

[macwilkin]

Matt, thanks for that great explanation of personal tartans -- I knew you would do a better job of explaining it since you had direct knowledge of them.

As for kilts becoming more than a Scottish thing, well I'd have to both agree and disagree with that. Kilts have definitely moved beyond just the physical confines of Scotland and have gained popularity and presence around the world. But that is still because of Scots. The Scottish diaspora has invaded almost every corner of the Globe. Their presence has exposed many other peoples to kilts and lead to the kilt's adoption by many none Scots. So I would credit the greater presence of kilts not to America but to the Scottish diaspora.

Well said, sir! I think you stated the case very well. The only thing I would add is that the diaspora is also responsible for many Scots wearing the kilt -- I know several Scottish expats who never wore the kilt at home, but when they came to the US (or Canada, NZ, Australia, SA, etc.), they joined the local Scottish society and started wearing the kilt as a link to home.

Cheers,

Todd

[A Hay]

I've enjoyed reading all the thoughtful and well considered comments in this thread. To return to the original thought, I don't believe it is a question of ethics, but more of taste. I first saw the Saltire kilt at a highland game in Washington D.C. about a year ago. It was worn by a Scottish entertainer whom I really like to hear. What struck me first was "How did they ever get the pattern to show like that in the pleated back?"

I'm sure the entertainer did not mean any disrespect to his Scottish heritage as he expresses that very well in his singing. However, when he turned his back to the audience and gyrated in a manner to show the pattern swaying back and forth, it was kind of a turn off, and my opinion of him went down a couple of notches.

Flags have always been a symbol of commonality and unity. I work everyday in a military community with a great racial, cultural, and religious diversity but our American Flag gets a lot more respect here than in the general public.
I wouldn't like to see it on anyone's backside so prominently that it was sat on.
I guess in my 60 plus years here I've come to the conslusion that a positive outlook and respectful attitude towards others accomplishes much more than negativity and tearing things and people down.

Bottom line: (pun intended) is that a Saltire Kilt is not for me and I hope it fades away quickly.

[macwilkin]

I've enjoyed reading all the thoughtful and well considered comments in this thread. To return to the original thought, I don't believe it is a question of ethics, but more of taste. I first saw the Saltire kilt at a highland game in Washington D.C. about a year ago. It was worn by a Scottish entertainer whom I really like to hear. What struck me first was "How did they ever get the pattern to show like that in the pleated back?"

I'm sure the entertainer did not mean any disrespect to his Scottish heritage as he expresses that very well in his singing. However, when he turned his back to the audience and gyrated in a manner to show the pattern swaying back and forth, it was kind of a turn off, and my opinion of him went down a couple of notches.

Flags have always been a symbol of commonality and unity. I work everyday in a military community with a great racial, cultural, and religious diversity but our American Flag gets a lot more respect here than in the general public.
I wouldn't like to see it on anyone's backside so prominently that it was sat on.
I guess in my 60 plus years here I've come to the conslusion that a positive outlook and respectful attitude towards others accomplishes much more than negativity and tearing things and people down.

Bottom line: (pun intended) is that a Saltire Kilt is not for me and I hope it fades away quickly.

This last post reminded me of something that happened to me in the last couple of days.

My DW and I just moved into a new house. On Monday morning I was waiting for the cable guy to come and hook up our cable box, and happened to notice that the neighbours American flag had evidently blown loose from the pole (which fits into a bracket screwed to the porch) and was now wrapped around a heating pipe on the roof. As of this morning, the flag was still there -- they have made no move to get it down. It bothers me, because that flag has meaning, and for 6 years now, I have raised and lowered the flag at the National Battlefield where I work as a seasonal ranger -- a flag that many soldiers fought and died for. I even have a link in my sig line to the Iowa State Historical Society's Civil War battle flag conservation program. They have earned the right, to paraphrase a historian on the History Channel's Save our History program, to be remembered and respected.

As I drive around town, I see all sorts of flags being flown from businesses and residences, and in in various conditions -- some immaculate and almost new, others which have broken loose from the pole, and are flapping in the wind, others dirty and black from smog, or tattered and ragged. Some are accidents, I'm sure, but others are the product of carelessness. Whilst I'm glad we live in a country where citizens can fly their flag, I worry sometimes that it's availabilty has led to apathy about its condition, display, etc.

What does this have to do with kilts, et al? Well, whilst I don't see the saltire flag kilt as disrespectful per se, the St. Andrew's Cross has just as much powerful symbolism as the US flag -- perhaps too powerful to be taken lightly. Yes, there are flag patches and other articles of clothing, but they can be worn respectfully, as Iolaus mentioned before -- but I just don't know about the flag on the back of a kilt. Flying proudly from a pole, yes.

It will be interesting to see if the flag is still on the roof tonight. If it is, I will go over and ask them to recover it. I only regret not doing so earlier.

Sorry for the bit of an OT rant.

**DISCLAIMER: I am not comparing my neighbour's actions to a saltire kilt, just pondering after seing it -- no offence meant towards anyone with such a kilt.

Todd