Jewish Tartan

[Captain Karrot]

As the instigator of this thread I also agree, but would just warn you of how complicated a process this might be. I'm currently trying to get New York City to adopt officially the tartan given to it by the Scottish Weavers Association. Oy, the red tape!!

Now add to this the fact as to which central authority would one go to get formal accceptance of it. The Chasidim?

Besides, there's an old joke about decision making. Put four Jews in a room, and they'll come out with six positions.

So be prepared for quite a bit of arguing, whoever takes this on.

Not trying to steal your thunder, you are definitely the instigator of this thread!!!

And, I am certainly not saying that I am up to the close to insurmountable task described...I definitely recognize the challenges!!! However, I will gladly jump on the coattails of anyone so inclined!

[Galician]

Not trying to steal your thunder, you are definitely the instigator of this thread!!!

And, I am certainly not saying that I am up to the close to insurmountable task described...I definitely recognize the challenges!!! However, I will gladly jump on the coattails of anyone so inclined!

I never felt that you were, Cap'n. I'm just admiting to what a troublemaker I can be, without even trying.

[TheKiltedWonder]

As the instigator of this thread I also agree, but would just warn you of how complicated a process this might be. I'm currently trying to get New York City to adopt officially the tartan given to it by the Scottish Weavers Association. Oy, the red tape!!

Now add to this the fact as to which central authority would one go to get formal accceptance of it. The Chasidim?

Besides, there's an old joke about decision making. Put four Jews in a room, and they'll come out with six positions.

So be prepared for quite a bit of arguing, whoever takes this on.

Why not just give a vague description and let rabbis have the tartan woven based on their interpretation

[gilmore]

As the starter of this thread, and having read the entire fascinating thread, I think I have to agree with you. While the adopted Gordon tartan is good, I think something more focused specifically to Jews everywhere would be nice. Maybe someone can design one, and then go through the lengthy process of getting it recognized officially.

The Gordon tartan is already specific to Jews. They chose it themselves, bottom up. It was not chosen for them by some dubious authority, top down.

Granted, the Knesset could come up with an Israeli tartan, and there are various authoritative rabbinical bodies that could approve a tartan for their own denomination, but as far as I know none of these has international standing.

To my mind the fact that the Gordon tartan was appropriated popularly by Jews themselves as an identifier of Jewishness confers far, far more authenticity than if an American or other foreigner paid some one $1,000+ to design and register one, secured the approval of some authoritative body whose authority would not extend beyond its own denomination and country, and then tried to market it as such.

Matt Newsome had this to say about the proposal to come up with an Appalachian tartan in another thread. I think it is equally applicable here:

<<<One obstacle in designing a tartan such as an "Appalachian" tartan is that, rather than represent a specific governmental region like a state or a county, it would represent a broader geographical region that has no unified government. What this means, effectively, is that there is no "Appalachian authority" that can give the thumbs up and approve it as the Appalachian tartan. So it would remain, strictly speaking, a fashion tartan.

This is not a bad thing, mind you, and there are plenty of examples of similar type tartans out there. There is the Grampian tartan, the Scottish Borders tartan, the Irish provincial tartans sold by Lochcarron (Leinster, Munster, Connaught, etc), all represent geographical regions with no "authority" to appeal to.

I say this is a potential obstacle because, without such authority, the success of the tartan may be limited. Lochcarron can design a Leinster tartan, for instance, and make it successful because they are a large tartan producing company who can then get their tartan into markets across the globe. An individual tartan enthusiast from West VA may design a wonderful tartan, but unless he can successfully promote it to a wider audience, the success of that tartan will be limited.

And in cases of designing a district tartan that is really a "fashion" tartan (no authority behind it), the success of that tartan is important. It's the difference between saying, "Well there is no officially recognized Appalachian tartan, but this one has been around for years and everyone is wearing it, and it is universally recognized as the tartan for the Appalachian region," or saying, "Well there is no officially recognized Appalachian tartan, but this guy in VA designed one several years back and I think two people have kilts in it."

The first scenario gives the tartan some legitimacy. The second makes the tartan an interesting design project, but little else.>>>

[macwilkin]

Let's not forget the Glasgow tartan. This thread is filled with numerous examples of the Jewish community in the Gorbals.

Regards,

Todd

[Galician]

I was, in fact, aware of Matt's posting on that point. That's why I asked the question I did. I also thought that any rabbinic council's decision might reflect the joke I quoted above. But, by all means, let's keep bouncing this off different people and communities.

Alan, I'd love to hear if the congregation you attend as a guest might have any input on this.

Anyone else who might have the connections to put this out to the wider Jewish community?

[Captain Karrot]

The Gordon tartan is already specific to Jews. They chose it themselves, bottom up. It was not chosen for them by some dubious authority, top down.>>>

I hear what you are saying - but doesn't this just reinforce your argument? You say that the Jews selected this, but doesn't this just apply to those in this particular region (as stated earlier "I have read time and again on this thread that many in Scotland's Jewish population adopted the name Gordon." ) Just because Jews in Scotland adopted the Gordon name doesn't mean that they represent the entire Jewish population.

Another point - I don't disagree with Matt's comments about the Appalacian tartan. However, selection and approval of a tartan for such an undefined (to me) group doesn't equate to the Jewish people. I have been married to a Jewish woman for 16 years, and known her 3 years longer than that. In that time, I have discovered that as a people, the Jews have a unique and long-standing unity that makes me believe that there would be significantly less challenge coming up with an approved design, if as a culture it was deemed to be important. Now, I am not saying that the they may not use the pre-existing relationship with the Gordon tartan. All I am saying is that I don't know that currently, I don't believe that certain Scottish Jews adoption of the Gordon tartan equates to the selection of the tartan for the Jewish people as a whole.

No matter what - great discussion!

[Mike S]

In addition,
as others have inquired, what is the official Clan stance on this issue (not simply what is "tolerated")?

Casually adopting a tartan that is not officially prescribed, by non members, is of no concern of mine. Other than the crests and heraldic devices, I'm of the opinion that the whole "clan" affiliated tartan practice is by and large a recent phenomenon anyway, at least to the stringent degree currently in place.

However, the tartan police might not take such a casual view on this, nor the clan societies in question.

How would Orthodox Jews feel if a gentile, non Levite, were to casually carry around the Torah and historic vestiges? Granted, religion vs. cultural heritage, but no less revered by both respective parties/examples.

Be advised,
I'm playing a bit of the devil's advocate here.

[Monkey@Arms]

In my opinion there's just no way you could get anything like an "official" Jewish tartan. There is no single religious authority like the Pope, who could put their stamp of approval on it. About the closest I could imagine would be if the Israeli government would adopt one, but I don't imagine that would be a priority for them.

An unofficial tartan made be a kilt maker (are you listening Rocky?) sure. Or maybe one sponsored by an organization or congregation (perhaps Brandeis University needs a pipe band?), but outside of Scotland, I don't think there'd be sufficient interest, and it seems like we've pretty much established that the Glasgow Jewish community has come up with their own solution to the problem by adopting the Gordon tartan. Works for me.

Best regards,

Jake

[Monkey@Arms]

In addition,
as others have inquired, what is the official Clan stance on this issue (not simply what is "tolerated")?

Casually adopting a tartan that is not officially prescribed, by non members, is of no concern of mine. Other than the crests and heraldic devices, I'm of the opinion that the whole "clan" affiliated tartan practice is by and large a recent phenomenon anyway, at least to the stringent degree currently in place.

However, the tartan police might not take such a casual view on this, nor the clan societies in question.

How would Orthodox Jews feel if a gentile, non Levite, were to casually carry around the Torah and historic vestiges? Granted, religion vs. cultural heritage, but no less revered by both respective parties/examples.

Be advised,
I'm playing a bit of the devil's advocate here.

I don't think the analogy works unless you think your clan's tartan is holy and handed down from God. Further from what I've read, one gets the distinct impression that clan affiliation in general (not talking kilts here) is of much greater concern to Scottish Americans than it is in Scotland itself. I imagine if the Marquess of Huntly (chief of the House of Gordon) had strong feelings about the issue he would have made them known at the relevant time.

Best regards,

Jake