"But I Don't Have Enough Money!"

[RockyR]

I've gotten into this one late, so please allow me to respond to Scotus directly (as well as others)

I agree that people should save up to buy a nice kilt. Nicer kilts last longer and look... well... nicer. Heck, on our site under the 'questions to ask yourself' page, we ask people to think about it hard and long and buy the nicest kilt they can afford. I really do appreciate my 8 yard wool kilts more than my Semi Trads. THAT BEING SAID, I disagree with this statement:

They claim that buying cheaper kilts will get them enthused about buying a traditional kilt later on.

As one of the VERY FEW companies that market to the low priced kilt market AND the high priced kilt market, I can give first hand observations that very few can give. Are there those just wanting a 'cheap kilt', never to buy another? You bet. However, there are MANY customers we've had over the years who have started out with a casual kilt ($100 ish) and moved up the ladder to nicer and nicer kilts, ending up with 8 yard wool kilts. MANY people have said to me something to this effect: "If I wouldn't have bought that first Casual, I would have never known how much I enjoy wearing kilts and ended up buying an 8 Yard Wool".

Does EVERY customer who buys a casual move up the ladder to a nicer kilt? No. Do a higher percentage than most people think do it? Yes.

Heck... Using MYSELF as an example. I bought 2 very low priced kilts 5 years ago (1 contemporary and 1 tartan). They got me hooked enough to start making them and marketing them... then practice made me better at what I do. Now I own several DOZEN kilts, most of them tanks... and a kilt company.

The other point I'd like to raise is one that's not 100% 'on topic' in the Traditional forum, but I'll raise it anyway. Less expensive kilts have their place as do 8 yarders. If I wanted to change my truck's oil, I wouldn't do so in a 'tank', but I WOULD do it in a UK Workmans. Different tools for different jobs.

Would you wear a 'tux' to cut grass? Would you wear Jeans to a black tie affair?

Again, I agree that nice kilts SHOULD be an investment and people SHOULD try to own at least one in their lifetime. That being said, other 'models' have their place as well.

[rodandy]

However, there are MANY customers we've had over the years who have started out with a casual kilt ($100 ish) and moved up the ladder to nicer and nicer kilts, ending up with 8 yard wool kilts. MANY people have said to me something to this effect: "If I wouldn't have bought that first Casual, I would have never known how much I enjoy wearing kilts and ended up buying an 8 Yard Wool".

I'm a prime example of what Rocky is talking about. My first kilt was a Hiking kilt from Sportkilts at about $80. I wasn't sure I'd like wearing a kilt and wasn't about to spend several hundred dollars on something that might end up in the Goodwill box.

After wearing it on a couple of hikes I decided that I did like wearing the kilt, in spite of my family thinking I'm mad, so I bought a Works model from Sportkilts in the Anderson tartan for about $130 and then added the hose and a sporran and a Jacobite shirt so I could wear the kit to the local Highland Games. This all took place before I found XMarks.

I persuaded the wife to buy me an Argyll jacket and vest for Christmas and wore the ensemble to church about 6 weeks ago. Since then I've ordered a semi-trad from Rocky in the Edzell tartan and a custom hand sewn in Anderson Modern from ChattanCat here at the forum. I'm planning on my next two kilts just as soon as I can afford to pay cash for them, probably one from Kathy Lare and possibly one from Barb T.

There is also a lot of merit to what Scotus has said. If you want a real, traditional kilt and are willing to be patient, nearly anyone could save up enough money to have one made.

Yes, I remember when I was a junior NCO in the Navy and raising 3 kids. There frequently wasn't much money left over by the time pay day rolled around. We still managed to buy a new car every now and again and take a vacation on occasion. If I had been interested in kilts at that time I could have found a way. In the final analysis people usually find a way to do what they REALLY want to do, it's all a matter of priorities.

[Maggie Pringlemeir]

Ladies and Gents ..

May a newbie to this board make her first post here? I'm finding it fascinating to read the spirited discussion to this thread. There ARE a few things I'd like to comment on, please.

First .. speaking from my own experience years ago as a sales rep .. many good companies found that if they brought out their newest items at a particular market .. within a few weeks, they were knocked off .. copied in cheaper fabrics with lower quality construction. From what I've been given to understand .. the business of making kilts in the UK has been affected in much the same way. The difference is that with kilts .. the garments are traditional, there's nothing really NEW so they're even easier to copy. Please .. BEFORE you consider buyiing that cheaper kilt .. find out WHERE it is made and WHERE the fabric is woven. You might be surprised to find just how much is now coming in from the Orient. The gentleman from Scotsweb referred to this as "Tartan Tat". Part of the REASON they are so much less pricey .. is that many of those goods are made by prison labor and by child labor. It's very much like the USA was back in the early 1800's .. before the Shirtwaist Company fire and the subsequent development of Child Safety Advocacy and the beginnings of Unions in the Mills.

Second .. I agree that it's wonderful and charming and A Very Good Thing, as Martha would say, to purchase the fabric for your kilt from one of the legitimate suppliers in the UK .. because they field the weaving out to the weavers in the crofts, same as it was done in the 1800's there. I'd like to suggest, gently, that maybe, just maybe, if you checked around, you could find a weaver here in the US who can make that fabric for you. Again, you might be amazed at how MANY folks here weave. The very thing that drew me into learning how to weave .. was the desire to be able to weave my own tartan sash. Corney, perhaps, but true.

Third .. To the folks who wrote about wearing District Tartans .. YES!! I've been studying tartans for a long time and it's amazing at how many there are that are NOT related to a specific clan. How wonderfully practical this is.

Fourth .. Yes, I DO know that women do NOT wear the kilt. I want to weave myself an arisaid .. when I get a wider loom to weave it on. My floor loom is only 22 inches and my largest table loom is 25 iinches. But I SEE it in my mind's eye .. and I will hold onto that picture in my spirit and wait .. until I have the proper equipment and the proper supplies to make it and make it properly. Which IS, I think, the entire purpose of this thread. To encourage those wanting a kilt .. to consider it carefully and realize that you get what you pay for, and quality ALWAYS winds up costing less, in the long run.

On all THAT, dear and gentle folk .. I think I'm talked out.

Warm hugs and Blessings of the Three upon ye and your families

Maggie & Ruby C
in Novi, MI .. and he says WOOF!

[DWFII]

Ladies and Gents ..

May a newbie to this board make her first post here? I'm finding it fascinating to read the spirited discussion to this thread. There ARE a few things I'd like to comment on, please.

BTW, welcome, Maggie. I like your attitude.

[DWFII]

When someone says that $50.00 is the limit that they want to spend on a kilt, it is almost certain to be a matter of priorities. If they only have $50.00...and that's their last penny...and/or no hope of earning more, they shouldn't be buying a kilt at any price, much less a computer.

I will admit that in retrospect, $2000.00 is a lot to spend on a compute. More than I would probably spend today. [My first computer cost $2600.00 and had 4 megabytes of ram. My latest cost just under $2000.00 and has 4 gigabytes of ram.] But my priorities were different then--I wanted to play the latest games, I did a bunch of graphics and photowork and created web pages. I thought I needed all that power and, as I said, I had done the research and knew what I was getting. But, read my previous posts in this thread and you understand that on 19th century wages, I had to save hard to buy those computers.

I might add, parenthetically, that I've never regretted spending that much on a computer--what I learned about computers was worth a lot more than I spent. and with that knowledge, I helped others and built a business and created websites for my Guild...etc.. I wonder if there isn't some similar mechanism at work with immersing yourself in the details of traditional Highland Attire?"

The main point, then as now, is that quality does indeed trump all else...in my opinion. If not, we give the lie to the bit about buying the "best quality you can afford"

The corollary is that most of us who can afford computers..at any price level and at any wage level...can also afford a "better" quality kilt if we want one. So it's really not a matter of poverty...all the poor-mouthing aside...but of priorities.

[Scotus]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Lads and Lasses:

I started this thread in the Traditional Kilts section for a reason. I wanted to discuss cost and encourage those who wanted to save for a traditional kilt to do so, rather than continuing to buy cheaper ones "in the meantime." That is, save your money. I have a right to my opinion.

While I understand the natural tendency for the contemporary kilt crowd to come over to the Traditional Kilts section to laud and magnify the virtues of the contemporary or less expensive kilts, I think this is a temptation that should have been avoided.

Not once have I gone to the Contemporary & Non-Traditional Kilts section of this forum in order to laud and magnify the glories of the traditional kilt, as I know that isn't the place for it. When someone brings up a discussion in that section of the forum, I know it's not the General Kilt Talk section and that anything I might want to say in regard to the quality of traditional kilts, as opposed to contemporary kits, would be inappropriate and best left unsaid. When someone posts in that section about Utilikilts or USA kilts, etc., I don't make posts that say, "You should not buy those. Instead, you should buy a traditional kilt for the following reasons..." That would be rude.

No matter how many times I've repeated this, it has gone unheeded. I'm sorry if my original post wasn't clear enough. I don't think it was a provocative post; at least it wasn't meant to be. I'm a plain spoken Midwesterner. Again, I posted in this section so that people would know it wasn't the place to post on what they liked about non-traditional, contemporary or less expensive kilts. Alas, I guess some people simply want to argue and get their point across no matter what.

I shall say no more and post no longer in this thread.

[DWFII]

No matter how many times I've repeated this, it has gone unheeded. I'm sorry if my original post wasn't clear enough. I don't think it was a provocative post; at least it wasn't meant to be. I'm a plain spoken Midwesterner. Again, I posted in this section so that people would know it wasn't the place to post on what they liked about non-traditional, contemporary or less expensive kilts. Alas, I guess some people simply want to argue and get their point across no matter what.

I shall say no more and post no longer in this thread.

Cheer up my friend, they're only over here because this is the most interesting and stimulating and dynamic section of the forum. And because deep down they are dissatisfied with their lower priced/lower quality choices.

[O'Callaghan]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Lads and Lasses:

I started this thread in the Traditional Kilts section for a reason. I wanted to discuss cost and encourage those who wanted to save for a traditional kilt to do so, rather than continuing to buy cheaper ones "in the meantime." That is, save your money. I have a right to my opinion.

While I understand the natural tendency for the contemporary kilt crowd to come over to the Traditional Kilts section to laud and magnify the virtues of the contemporary or less expensive kilts, I think this is a temptation that should have been avoided.

Not once have I gone to the Contemporary & Non-Traditional Kilts section of this forum in order to laud and magnify the glories of the traditional kilt, as I know that isn't the place for it. When someone brings up a discussion in that section of the forum, I know it's not the General Kilt Talk section and that anything I might want to say in regard to the quality of traditional kilts, as opposed to contemporary kits, would be inappropriate and best left unsaid. When someone posts in that section about Utilikilts or USA kilts, etc., I don't make posts that say, "You should not buy those. Instead, you should buy a traditional kilt for the following reasons..." That would be rude.

No matter how many times I've repeated this, it has gone unheeded. I'm sorry if my original post wasn't clear enough. I don't think it was a provocative post; at least it wasn't meant to be. I'm a plain spoken Midwesterner. Again, I posted in this section so that people would know it wasn't the place to post on what they liked about non-traditional, contemporary or less expensive kilts. Alas, I guess some people simply want to argue and get their point across no matter what.

I shall say no more and post no longer in this thread.

I think part of the problem is that you seem to think cheap kilts automatically belong with contemporary kilts and not with traditional kilts. Not everyone agrees.

If you hope to control the content of replies on an Internet forum, you are usually going to be dissappointed.

[DWFII]

I think part of the problem is that you seem to think cheap kilts automatically belong with contemporary kilts and not with traditional kilts. Not everyone agrees.

If you hope to control the content of replies on an Internet forum, you are usually going to be dissappointed.

First may I say...with all due respect...that most folks who post in this sub-forum do agree with Scotus. I think it is implied in the title of the sub-forum. After all, a Traditional Kilt is almost always made of worsted wool (weren't some made of silk?) and certain construction techniques which, combined with the material, place it in a different price category than other processes. I suspect that any kilt made of wool that costs $80.00 a yard and techniques that require a fair amount of extraordinary skill would, by default, no longer be a "cheap kilt."

Second...and this has already been discussed by the mods, but it seems to bear repeating every so often as it applies to all of Xmarks...it is wise to refrain from using the word "you" except in the most generalized sense. Especially when differing with someone, I think it is far better to relate your own experiences and/or likes and dislikes than to characterize the flaws in someone else's opinions. Especially when that narrows down to one particular person.

I hope you don't think I am being censorious. I do not intend it that way--just offering a little different perspective...maybe.

[wyldathart]

I took the middle road ... Kinda. I saved up and went for the high quality 8 yrd but had to go with 13oz instead of 16oz. And I went with a package deal that I paired out items that I could get cheaper here at home, Like brogues and dress shirt. In my case I wanted the package so I could attend my college graduation smartly kilted. In my case, time was somewhat of a factor being that I don't have the time to space out my purchases. So somewhere near April 23 I'll be getting my first Kilt, maybe not a "Tank" but pretty close anyway