Irish Kilts and Tartans

[Farlander]

Thanks Matt and Todd for a wonderful article that is both informative and scholarly!

From the article:

"It is worth noting that the Ulster region in Ireland was at this time being settled heavily by Scottish emigrants..."

Moreover, the history books tell us that some significant portion of these settlers were from the Highlands including 5 highland nobles, namely -- the Duke of Lennox, his brother Lord D'Aubigny, the Earl of Abercorn, the Lord of Burley and Lord Ochiltree.

So, my question is, along with the large Highland immigration to Northern Ireland, is there any evidence of the Highland dress (namely the kilt) being brought with them? It would seem that the answer is NO, which seems a bit peculiar to me. Could it be that although the kilt existed at this time, it was not actually all that popular, or was it more of a desire to blend in and adopt the dress of the locals?

[Jock Scot]

Thanks Matt and Todd for a wonderful article that is both informative and scholarly!

From the article:

Moreover, the history books tell us that some significant portion of these settlers were from the Highlands including 5 highland nobles, namely -- the Duke of Lennox, his brother Lord D'Aubigny, the Earl of Abercorn, the Lord of Burley and Lord Ochiltree.

So, my question is, along with the large Highland immigration to Northern Ireland, is there any evidence of the Highland dress (namely the kilt) being brought with them? It would seem that the answer is NO, which seems a bit peculiar to me. Could it be that although the kilt existed at this time, it was not actually all that popular, or was it more of a desire to blend in and adopt the dress of the locals?

From a non historians angle, mine, it is well known that the kilt is Highland attire and it is only very recently that the lowland Scots have taken to the kilt. It gives us Highlanders a certain amount of amusement to hear lowland Scots pontificating about the kilt, when for centuries they poured nothing but scorn on it.

Which brings me to another point, these incomers from Scotland that came to Ireland all those centuries ago, were they from the lowlands?I am not at all sure that the five Nobles mentioned above could be described as genuine highlanders. If so, the question is answered, they would not have had(unlikely anyway) the kilt for the native Irish to copy.

[JSFMACLJR]

One of my Mackintosh relations ( Duncan Mackintosh of Kyllachy ) left Inverness to Ireland with a Highland regiment in the Irish Rebellion of 1798. He settled in County Wicklow, marrying Lady Alicia Weldon, a scion of the Earl of Dysart. While serving in the army, I am sure Duncan wore the kilt. I would have my doubts if he continued to wear it after he married and became a landowner in Ireland.

[davidlpope]

Which brings me to another point, these incomers from Scotland that came to Ireland all those centuries ago, were they from the lowlands?I am not at all sure that the five Nobles mentioned above could be described as genuine highlanders. If so, the question is answered, they would not have had(unlikely anyway) the kilt for the native Irish to copy.

My understanding is that the Irish Plantations were settled with Protestant English and Lowland Scots. As Jock points out, these Lowlanders looked down upon the Scots Highlanders, their language, and their manner of dress.

I'm convinced that there is no genuine historic basis for "Irish Kilts" prior to the Nationalist movements that Todd has discussed. Anything else seems to be grasping at straws...

Cordially,

David

[macwilkin]

My understanding is that the Irish Plantations were settled with Protestant English and Lowland Scots. As Jock points out, these Lowlanders looked down upon the Scots Highlanders, their language, and their manner of dress.

I'm convinced that there is no genuine historic basis for "Irish Kilts" prior to the Nationalist movements that Todd has discussed. Anything else seems to be grasping at straws...

Cordially,

David

Not to mention small numbers of Welsh, Manx, French Huguenots, German Palantines and Danes (William's Army in 1690 was a Protestant Coalition Army).

For example, the noted American frontiersman David Crockett was of Huguenot ancestry -- the original spelling of the surname was Croquetagne.

T.

[Radge]

From a non historians angle, mine, it is well known that the kilt is Highland attire and it is only very recently that the lowland Scots have taken to the kilt. It gives us Highlanders a certain amount of amusement to hear lowland Scots pontificating about the kilt, when for centuries they poured nothing but scorn on it.

Which brings me to another point, these incomers from Scotland that came to Ireland all those centuries ago, were they from the lowlands?I am not at all sure that the five Nobles mentioned above could be described as genuine highlanders. If so, the question is answered, they would not have had(unlikely anyway) the kilt for the native Irish to copy.

Most of the Plantation settlers from Scotland were Lowlanders (from the South West mainly) and Borderers. There were however Highlanders that formed part of the plantation also. During the violence in the 1640's there was a clash between 'British' settlers and the 'Native' forces where Highlanders in the 'British' contingent were spared by Highlanders in the 'Native', or more rightly Catholic, forces due to the fact they were Highlanders. Unfortunately it doesn't explain if it was because they were wearing the plaid, or because they spoke Gaelic or because the Catholic Scots knew their compatriots by sight.

Highland/Island contingents that formed part of the Irish Brigade under the Duke of Montrose in Scotland, and those that fought with the Irish Confederates in South West Ireland, did indeed wear Highland apparel by all accounts, or a mixture of 'conventional' and Highland clothing depending on location and the wear and tear on their kit due to campaigning. The Irish troops wore for the most part plain, undyed, trews and carried a Brat, or mantle, and wore a woolen hat similar to a 'beanie' today.


NB The Lowlanders of yesteryear, who would have run for their musket at the sight of a plaid and a pair of bare-legs, are somewhat different from those of us today who have a considerable amount of Highland heritage and, like anyone else, have everyright to pontificate about the Kilt, afterall this is what this website is about. I have been on the end of some 'Professional Highlander' remarks before, not helped by the fact that I have a London accent. I, like many others on this site, see the Kilt as a unifying garb and not one that is the sole preserve of a few precious teuchters. Nae offence likes.

[slohairt]

From a non historians angle, mine, it is well known that the kilt is Highland attire and it is only very recently that the lowland Scots have taken to the kilt. It gives us Highlanders a certain amount of amusement to hear lowland Scots pontificating about the kilt, when for centuries they poured nothing but scorn on it.

Which brings me to another point, these incomers from Scotland that came to Ireland all those centuries ago, were they from the lowlands?I am not at all sure that the five Nobles mentioned above could be described as genuine highlanders. If so, the question is answered, they would not have had(unlikely anyway) the kilt for the native Irish to copy.

Yes, Jock as David pointed out, the Plantation was mostly Lowland Scots and English.

Whenever people talk of the Scots in Ulster, they always seem to refer only to the Plantation. There were, however, a substantial number of Highlanders already living in Ulster: the Gallowglass. I think they are mainly forgotten because they were Gaelic-speaking and largely Catholic, so they were assimilated very quickly into the native Irish culture.

[PiobBear]

As for the probity of wearing a kilt on St. Patrick's Day, I think that as it was the Irish that taught the art of distilling to the Scots, men of Scottish ancestry around the world should wear their kilts on the 17th out of sheer gratitude.

[MrShoe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radge
About O'Neill sporting the Caubeen, aparently it wasn't a common type of headgear worn locally and may have come about by his adoption of headwear similar to that worn by the MacDonnell's of Antrim. Scots Bonnets.

So we credit the caubeen to be Scottish because it was similar to the Scot Bonnets? Not something new? Of course it was not common. When something or considered to be starting is new is it common?

So far, I can't say I have ever seen any source stating that the caubeens were based on O'Neill's headgear.

I'm sure that the AOH and Wikipedia would not be credible enough sources. There was a time when law made wearing a shamrock, seen as rebellion, a hanging offense.
Like the British Army would openly promote the origin of a uniform item as coming from a leader of the Irish rebellion that they fought to put down. However, London Irish Rifles Regimental Association will at least make mention of it ..."wearing what might be a caubeen".

Thank you for bringing up the point that a "caubeen" may also refer to a hat with a brim; hence in the famous song The Wearing of the Green, the line about "I will change the colour that I wear in my caubeen."


You don't change the thistle or dandelion that you wear in your head covering?

There are many literary references to the caubeen, but no pictures found in the following reference. At the time of the writing I would have to believe that they were in existence and considered Irish for at least a while.
Toronto Sunday World - Jan 3 1913
The Plays of Lady Gegory, by Andrew E. Malone, 1924, page 1
The Literacy Digest vol xx, for 6 months endind 6/30/1900, page 615
Notes and Queries - medium of intercommunication, 7th series vol 9, Jan-June 1890 pg 255
Catholic World - October 1877 - March 1878 page 216
Littel's Living Age, Jan, Feb, March 1860
A Singing Ambivalence in America Immigrants. Between old world and new 1830-1930 pg 1

[macwilkin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radge
About O'Neill sporting the Caubeen, aparently it wasn't a common type of headgear worn locally and may have come about by his adoption of headwear similar to that worn by the MacDonnell's of Antrim. Scots Bonnets.

So we credit the caubeen to be Scottish because it was similar to the Scot Bonnets? Not something new? Of course it was not common. When something or considered to be starting is new is it common?

So far, I can't say I have ever seen any source stating that the caubeens were based on O'Neill's headgear.

I'm sure that the AOH and Wikipedia would not be credible enough sources. There was a time when law made wearing a shamrock, seen as rebellion, a hanging offense.
Like the British Army would openly promote the origin of a uniform item as coming from a leader of the Irish rebellion that they fought to put down. However, London Irish Rifles Regimental Association will at least make mention of it ..."wearing what might be a caubeen".

Thank you for bringing up the point that a "caubeen" may also refer to a hat with a brim; hence in the famous song The Wearing of the Green, the line about "I will change the colour that I wear in my caubeen."


You don't change the thistle or dandelion that you wear in your head covering?

There are many literary references to the caubeen, but no pictures found in the following reference. At the time of the writing I would have to believe that they were in existence and considered Irish for at least a while.
Toronto Sunday World - Jan 3 1913
The Plays of Lady Gegory, by Andrew E. Malone, 1924, page 1
The Literacy Digest vol xx, for 6 months endind 6/30/1900, page 615
Notes and Queries - medium of intercommunication, 7th series vol 9, Jan-June 1890 pg 255
Catholic World - October 1877 - March 1878 page 216
Littel's Living Age, Jan, Feb, March 1860
A Singing Ambivalence in America Immigrants. Between old world and new 1830-1930 pg 1

Note the use of the word "might" by the London Irish Rifles. Even they do not have a definitive source that the bonnet of Owen Roe O'Neill was the inspiration for the British Army Caubeen. Pure speculation until a definitive source says, "yes, a woodcut of O'Neill was the inspiration".

And what you fail to mention is that during the reign of Queen Victoria, Irish soldiers were presented with Shamrocks on St. Patrick's Day -- our article actually cites a newspaper story from the New York Times regarding this custom -- it is still practiced today when the "Micks" (The Irish Guards) receive the shamrock from the Sovereign.

What does your list of sources say specifically? Are they discussing a caubeen, a "shabby old hat", or an Irish bonnet worn by soldiers? Remember that the word is also slang for the former, as in The Wearing of the Green.

For example, you cite: The Plays of Lady Gegory, by Andrew E. Malone, 1924, page 1. I just looked this article up on JSTOR (an online periodical database) and all it says is: "The caubeen has been displaced by the peaked cap...", in reference to the stereotypical music hall Irishman (bejabbers and begorah!). Nothing about an Irish bonnet worn by Irish soldiers, past or present.

Wikipedia, as my students will tell you, is not an acceptable source. I noted in their entry on the caubeen that a "citation is needed" for the O'Neill story.

Again, I don't really understand why you're getting a bee in your caubeen about this.

T.