I would like to submit a proposal to the membership

[Steve Ashton]

Hawk, I have read post 29. Very closely. I also looked at the 1 kilt 10 looks thread.

1 Kilt 10 looks actually follows quite closely with my genre examples above.

I do however disagree with CMcG about the term Postmodern. Postmodernism is a late-20th-century movement in the arts, architecture, and criticism that was a departure from modernism. That just does not fit and is certainly not equal in stress to how the word Traditional is used in the same post.

Now, please understand that I am not putting this out there as "This is the way it's going to be" and I'm not saying that we should create 8 subsections. I'm just trying to get some thinking going.

All I'm trying to do is find a way that fits what our members like Jock are saying about traditional. I read Jock's words "-"to get you to understand that Traditional kilt attire is not all tweeds, brogues and cromachs and whilst sometimes that form of dress is very much everyday wear in Scotland, it is not always so. Equally though, so are shirt sleeves and bare feet in the correct circumstance." So this isn't a case of Traditional vs everything else. It is circumstances and context. Even Jock says that there are many shades of gray within traditional. He used the guy in a stream, in only a kilt and shirtsleeves, as an example of fully traditional. By Jock's definition all the genre, with the exception of the last, could be done traditionally.

[TheOfficialBren]

Modern Highland Dress- firmly rooted in Tradition, looking toward today and tomorrow (@Steve Ashton, your Kilt Kut jackets fall here with me. Still THCD but with a contemporary spin). Business suit equivalent through polo shirts might fall under this category. Traditionalists probably wouldn't bat an eye to it but it is unlikely to be seen in the KA catalogue on a regular basis. Rocky's Casuals, for example, might fit here to a degree. The key is traditional-styled kilts (i.e. Tartan [wool or PV] and tweed) worn mostly traditionally but not quite old school. Nathan's hiking outfit falls here.

Traditional Informal Highland Dress- Tried and true classics. (Jock and Kyle regularly display this style). Tattersall, tweed, cardigans, jumpers, Barbour; Argyles, Braemars, Crails, and Wallaces; regimental ties, bow ties, and no ties. Crommachs and sporrans gallore. Plaids and blades (the ones we actually discuss within the context of the boards only).

Eclectic Kiltwear- Utilikilts, MUGS, Casuals. This is for the kiltie who wants to express their free-spirited and unique fashion sense without the confines of a traditional rubric. Rockers, hippies, goths, punks, steampunkers, industrial. This is where x-kilts and their ilk can be found. Festival wear is included. T-shirts to haut couture.

Stepping Out On The Town- dress to impress. Stepping up for formal occasions from black to white ties. Bring your jabots, your PCs, your doublets, and your fancy bits!

Game On!! - the place to talk about how you wear your kilt during physical acctivities like sports and strenuous exercise. Maybe you're a drummer in a rock band and you wear a kilt to bang your skins. Maybe you toss the cabre. Maybe you play rugby. Maybe you do the Warrior Dash. This is the place to discuss high-octane kilt-wearing. Sport kilts, casual kilts, utilikilts, tactikilts, all your rough and ready kilts. Alan H and LitTrog display this style regularly.

Historical Highland Dress- historically relevant kilts and accoutrements. Accuracy is the emphasis here rather than modern style.

Theatrical- costumes. Fantasy. Not historical. Cosplay. Impressionists go here. If it's a costume and not intended to demonstrate period correct attire then this is the place.

Uniformed kilties- pipe bands and militatia. If you wear your kilt as part of a uniform then this is the place.

Perhaps some refining by more capable chaps will help but this just about covers every base that I can think of.

[briansbarkery]

Steve, I have read most of the posts in this discussion and I do like the idea of trying to get better categories of where a thread belongs and to get examples of dress in each style. But I have to admit that most of the time, as late, all I do is go to what's new and puruse that. Irregardless of what forum it is in, I just look at what interests me and follow the thread.
But saying that and reading this discussion, I like Nathan's ideas of the new possible layout. That's just my fairly newbie ideas on the matter. Thanks for brining up this discussion and for the thought of bringing the newer style of kilts into their own forum.

[Steve Ashton]

Bren, I can see what your saying and see where you are going. Basically your 8 genre are very similar to my 8 genre with the exception of the words Highland Dress.

If I may quote the second paragraph of our Mission Statement -

"This is a Kilt Forum. Our members come here to learn about, discuss and share a love for the kilt. This is not a Scottish specific forum nor is it a highland wear specific forum, just as it is not a modern wear specific forum. We keep our focus on the kilt. It is what brings us here and what makes this forum unique in the world."

So, I'm sorry, we cannot go in your direction.

[McMurdo]

Yes, you are dressed in a kilt instead of trousers as a tangible manifestation of your Scottish Heritage, but so are all the others who attended.
By Jock's definition of traditional everyone in your photo is dressed traditionally suitable to the event.

If you have a better idea I would surely like to hear it.

I think we are talking at cross purposes here, while you are sure that event based categories are the way to go I can not subscribe to that, take a look at the photo from Tartan Tuesday notice Andie with his black shirt and modern kilt on the left, how can you say that he is wearing the kilt as a tangible manifestation of his Scottish Heritage? The simple fact is that he is not, he simply likes to wear the kilt in his own way. Then we move onto Lloyd beside him, he is wearing the kilt with a golf shirt, while he is indeed wearing the kilt as a manifestation of his heritage. I do not think that he is wearing the same way that say Nathan, Colin and I are wearing the kilt. As I said above any new subsection format that does not address the fact that a vast number of kilt wearers wear the kilt traditionally fails.

At the same time behind the scenes, the traditional portion of the community here at XMarks have been busy coming up with a definition of Traditional Civilian Highland Dress, lets face it the traditional kilts section of the forum is busy simply because there are a vast number of members who enjoy dressing traditionally in the kilt and want to talk about it. Another thought is that with a traditional section we have a place for people to ask questions regarding their traditional outfit.

I think we need a traditional section for those of us who do wear the kilt traditionally. If you must change the subsections I have to say there needs to be a section for traditional kilt wear.

[Jock Scot]

Right where were we?I think Steve, that the broad brush that you are useing is way too broad. I also think that you are being rather mischievous with your interpretations of what I have said.

So let me be clear here.

Is Hamish's pinstripe kilt a kilt? Yes.

Is Hamish's pinstripe kilt smart? Yes.

Is Hamish's pinstripe kilt appropriate? Yes, but it depends of course on the occasion and what the person wearing it is trying to achieve.

Is Hamish's pinstripe kilt traditional? No

Now ask yourself the same questions using a Utilikilt, MUG, tinfoil, kilt and the same answers come up, for me anyway.

So whilst there are indeed grey areas there are also black and white yes and no answers to some examples and questions as clearly demonstrated above.

So lets take a traditional wool tartan kilt made by a top Scottish traditional kiltmaker. A tank in our xmarks terminology.

So we have a formal wedding. This tank is on parade and it is being worn four inches below the bottom of the knee. If that is what the owner wants to do, then that is fine. But, BUT, if he was to ask me and many others here if he was wearing the kilt in a traditional fashion, then the answer would be a resounding "no"!

Let us now take a tartan kilt made by an illustrious modern thinking Western Canadian kiltmaker. This kilt is made of PV, it is machine sewn, it has a hidden pocket, it is knife pleated to the redstripe, the bottom of the kilt hangs at about, or just above, mid knee and is made from 6.5 yards of cloth.

So this kilt goes to an early evening drinks do. Pictures are taken and published on a kilt website for helpful criticism on how the look in general could be improved. Comments are forthcoming from the nice and very helpful members and the modern cut kilt jacket gets the thumbs up from all, the hose are at perfect height and colour, even the black slip on shoes are not criticised and the only contrary comment, from a particularly miserable sharp eyed Scot, is one about the garter ties that are a tad sloppy and guess what? Everyone agrees that the look is an almost perfect example of THCD. Everyone, that is, apart from the kiltmaker!

So yes, grey areas do very much exist and much of that can be put down to personal flair. However, Black and white limits do exist as I think I have demonstrated above.

[tundramanq]

Trying to simplify and define the problem in my head, here.

Fashion is fickle and ever changing. Todays fashion will become obsolete or a classic in a few years.
The kilt has continued to change thru out it's history. "Traditional" here is a snapshot of an era for the kilt.

There is no hard line between formal and casual. It is more of a sliding scale. The kilt will happily slide the whole scale.

I think the categories need to stay few in number, generalized and the dividing lines a bit blurred.

Lot's of good input.

[Father Bill]

Sliding scale: Very Old / Old / Recent / New / Avante Garde / Plus: Uniforms / Unusual / and maybe "Weird?"

Not bad! The first three sound like grades for cheese.

[rmccool]

Hawk, I have read post 29. Very closely. I also looked at the 1 kilt 10 looks thread.

1 Kilt 10 looks actually follows quite closely with my genre examples above.

I do however disagree with CMcG about the term Postmodern.

This might be a case where "Avant-Garde" applies?

With that said, and with due regard to Steve's concerns, I do mostly like CMcG's proposal - IF we are change the existing categories. As a wearer of both kilts both traditional and contemporary/modern/non-tartan, and in both traditional and casual contemporary ways, I've never felt unwelcome at XMarks.

[Steve Ashton]

OK folks, this is probably going to be a long thread and there are already quite a few comments and suggestions made.

If someone wishes to say you like something posted by another would you please do me a favor and quote the part you like or list the post number that you like.

This way I do not have to search through all the posts trying to guess which post you are referring to.