Kilt with blue patrol jacket?

[berend]

Hello,

I was wondering if there is any any proof of ww1-ww2 highland officers wearing a kilt in combination with the blue patrol tunic/jacket?
I have seen a lot of trews, and know this would be the official regulation.

Thanks in advance!
greetings rene

[figheadair]

This has been discussed before - Blue Patrol Jacket.

[berend]

Thanks for your reply!

I was familiar with the thread, but it has since closed. So here's another try, maybe there is more evidence by now...

The thread is also mainly about the non-military version of the blue tunic or past 1945.
I am especially interested in the military form, specifically of the period ww1-ww2.
Most of the photos also have since disappeared from the thread. Reference is also made to, for example, Gordon Walker, but then we are talking about the 90s.

There is still a specific thing that you would like to know, such as:
48HofC's says: Highland regiments wear blue patrols with kilts or trews, not just trews. Depending on the specific regiment it changes with battalion dress orders.
I would like to know which specific (Canadian) highland regiments wore kilts or where the dress orders can be found?

And any photo of (Canadian) highlander from the period ww1-ww2 wearing a blue patrol jacket and a kilt would be welcome!

Greetings rene

[OC Richard]

About Canadian, or other Dominions, traditions I know nothing except what I've read in Barnes, published in the early 1950s.

In the British military Patrol jackets were repeatedly banned by regulations but were exceptionally popular with officers, who purchased their uniforms privately.

Officers had numerous forms of dress as can be seen here. Generally officers were mounted in the old days and only wore kilts with a couple orders of dress. Blue Patrols were worn with trews as you see.



So yes I've seen modern army pipers wearing Blue Patrols with kilts, keeping in mind that the ones I've seen have generally been Pipe Majors of officer rank.

Here is Captain Gavin Stoddart.



Note that in certain modes of dress officers wore dirks with Patrols, which however were worn without waistbelts, the dirk being suspended by internal means.

There's a thing in the Victorian Highland regiments, and perhaps persisting today, where senior sergeants' uniforms follow officers' patterns in some ways. Since Pipe Majors can vary in rank, I think in some cases the Pipe Majors seen wearing Blue Patrols are below officer rank.

[neloon]

I think it's a long time since officers purchased their own uniforms.

Alan

[kilted redleg]

Just to expand on OC's point, in the uniform regulations of the RROS - RSM's [Regimental Sergeant Majors] are allowed to don the patrol blue jacket.

https://www.electricscotland.com/his...nsHandBook.pdf look at page 54-55 for further explanation.

[figheadair]

I think it's a long time since officers purchased their own uniforms.

Alan

In total, yes, but until fairly recently an officer still purchased their Service Dress, and still has to purchase their Mess Dress.

[OC Richard]

Here's an example of Other Ranks wearing Blue Patrols with kilts, Gordon Walker.

Note again that the blue Patrol tunic is worn plain, no plaid, crossbelt, waistbelt, and for sergeants and officers no sash.

The dirk is suspended by an interior strap which goes through a slot in the tunic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSP-KLGYa6k&t=254s

I can't recall seeing other Other Ranks wear Patrols. Perhaps it's a regimental thing.

What I have seen is Canadian civilian pipe bands wearing a civilian version of the Blue Patrol tunic.

Rather than the very dark blue, the traditional colour for Blue Patrols, these band tunics often follow the old regimental Doublet colours of red for drummers, dark green for pipers.

I've also seen Patrol tunics done up in cotton drill, in tan, white, and other colours, for civilian pipe bands.

[OC Richard]

In total, yes, but until fairly recently an officer still purchased their Service Dress, and still has to purchase their Mess Dress.

What about the blue Patrol tunic?

In Victorian times it was one of the non-regulation things officers wore. Shell jackets were another (see the Seaforth officers above).

About the origins of the blue Patrol tunic, Barnes says:

"Undress uniforms of this period (mid-19th century) had interesting features.

The blue frock coat, originally the officers' great coat or Camblet cloak, which had a cape, became so popular after the Napoleonic Wars that there was difficulty in preventing its use in nearly all parades.

It dates to the beginning of the 19th century, and even in the previous century Generals and other officers had blue undress coats. In spite of being abolished several times it survived...

In 1868 the officers' blue Patrol jacket, with much braid, took the place of the blue frock coat (which soon reappeared) and was worn by Highland officers with trews and round forage cap. It was worn at the same time as the plain blue frock which finally replaced it early in the 20th century."

All this confuses me. All I know is what I see in old photos, that jackets like what we call blue Patrols had elaborate braid across the front in the mid-19th century but by the late 19th century we see plain blue jackets muck like those worn today.

[OC Richard]

As far as Canadian military use goes, here is Pipe Major Warrant Officer Iain Lang of the 48th Highlanders of Canada.

As you see it's a rather different animal than the British version.

The jacket itself has been given gauntlet cuffs borrowed from the Full Dress doublet, and also like the doublet is worn with collar badges. He's also wearing the sash.

Yet like the British version he's not wearing crossbelt, waistbelt, or plaid.

Oddly he's not wearing a dirk, which as we've seen is worn by British army pipers in blue Patrols.

Another odd thing is that he's not wearing the badges of the office of Pipe Major.



(Here's the Warrant Officer badge of rank worn between the Pipe Major badges of office)