Possible idea for a new sub forum.

[kilted2000]

I think it would be an idea to have a sub forum that sat between the Traditional and the Contemporary kilt wear forums. The Traditional forum seams to be mainly about how people traditionally wear the kilt in Scotland. The Contemporary forum is filled with threads about more modern utility kilt styles. What I’m thinking about is somewhere to discuss kilt wearing between these two extremes. For example, for people who wear a traditional wool tartan kilt, but who might wear tshirts or non traditional footwear with it.

[Jock Scot]

............ For example, for people who wear a traditional wool tartan kilt, but who might wear tshirts or non traditional footwear with it.

What you describe above is perfectly traditional......................... In the right circumstances.

[jhockin]

Always keep in mind a common phrase from this forum: “There aren’t any kilt police.” 😉

[kilted2000]

Always keep in mind a common phrase from this forum: “There aren’t any kilt police.” 😉

I’m not trying to be the kilt police. It’s just that sometimes someone, usually not from Britain will post a picture in the traditional kilt wearers forum only to be told what he is wearing isn’t THCD. Newcomers might get the impression that something marked not traditional is somehow “wrong.” My point is there is a difference between something not traditionally worn in the highlands by civilians and someone wearing a punk/goth look in a modern utility kilt. Not that there is anything wrong with either. Maybe something like wearing a flat cap with a kilt. Not THCD, but I like the look. Also where I live seersucker is very traditional in summer. Could a seersucker kilt jacket ever be considered traditional by highland standards? It just seems that the THCD style is mainly British inspired. I tend towards that style myself but as I’m not British I also don’t feel the need to limit myself to what is worn across the pond. This isn’t meant to be a criticism of anyone. It was just an idea I had.

[Steve Ashton]

This is one of those questions that has plagued X Marks for many years.

It goes along with the question "What is a kilt".

Almost 10 years ago this forum chose to set the parameters of the forum sections not by how the garment is constructed - but by how it is worn.

That is why the title of the forum section is "Traditional Kilt Wear"

Your example - "for people who wear a traditional wool tartan kilt, but who might wear tshirts or non traditional footwear with it." would put it in the Contemporary Kilt Wear forum as you specify that the garment (however made) is worn in a non-traditional manner.

This is also why you often see Traditional with a capital "T" and sometimes not.
"Traditional", (capital T), would mean you are referring to a garment constructed in the Traditional manner. AKA In Accordance With "The Art of Kiltmaking" by Barb T.
While "traditional" (small t) would mean that you wear your kilt in a traditional manner. Small "t" traditional would then be defined by the wearer as no one has been able to offer a definition that everyone can agree on.

The Contemporary Forum section would then include not only the Utility Style Kilts, if worn in a non-traditional manner, but any kilt worn in what the wearer feels is not traditional by his personal definition.

This is why I post this in the Contemporary Forum section as I do not define this as the traditional manner of wear. -
The kilt is not made IAW TAoK. It is my own Contemporary Style Kilt with mid height waist and pockets.
The jacket is a modern sport coat constructed by me for wear with a kilt.
The belt is not a Traditional kilt belt
I'm wearing tassel loafers.

[davedove]

That's just what they want you to think!

NO ONE EXPECTS THE KILT POLICE!!!!!

Always keep in mind a common phrase from this forum: “There aren’t any kilt police.” 😉

[Steve Ashton]

I’m not trying to be the kilt police. It’s just that sometimes someone, usually not from Britain will post a picture in the traditional kilt wearers forum only to be told what he is wearing isn’t THCD. Newcomers might get the impression that something marked not traditional is somehow “wrong.” My point is there is a difference between something not traditionally worn in the highlands by civilians and someone wearing a punk/goth look in a modern utility kilt. Not that there is anything wrong with either. Maybe something like wearing a flat cap with a kilt. Not THCD, but I like the look. Also where I live seersucker is very traditional in summer. Could a seersucker kilt jacket ever be considered traditional by highland standards? It just seems that the THCD style is mainly British inspired. I tend towards that style myself but as I’m not British I also don’t feel the need to limit myself to what is worn across the pond. This isn’t meant to be a criticism of anyone. It was just an idea I had.

I'm going to agree with you on how the acronym THCD is sometimes used here. I have been around kilt forums for a while now and X Marks is the only place THCD is used. It seems to have been made up here and is unknown or accepted anywhere else.
The problem to me is that while those who use it, and hold it up as some form of gold standard, cannot agree on just what THCD is.

I have heard from many new members, many former members, and those viewing X Marks for the first time, that its use here does give the impression to the outside world that X Marks is only for those who prefer to dress in a particular manner and that anything other than that manner is not welcome.

This, to me personally, harkens back to a time when the term "Family Friendly" was seen quite a bit here. When I asked the person that used it most, and who was trying to hold everyone else to a family friendly standard, to define the term.

The closest that he could get was the same as the phrase made famous in the 1950's Joe McCarthy "Red Scare" trials. "I know it when I see it."

My response was, "If you can't define a term, how can you expect others to adhere to it?" "One person's personal definition is not enough to hold everyone else's feet over the fire for."

I would guess that I have asked over 50 people who have left X Marks - Why did you leave? The almost universal answer was that some X Marks members made them feel that anything other than TCHD was not acceptable. So instead of bucking an "X Marks = traditional" standard, they just left to find somewhere more tolerant.

X Marks is the oldest continuous, largest, and most active forum dedicated to the kilt. In its long history I can remember quite a few ups and downs. At one time Utilikilts were the most talked about topic. At another, Laird's plaides and Cromach's were all the rage.

Over all the years, through all the cycles, the one thing that I personally wish had never happened is THCD.

[Touchstone]

The closest that he could get was the same as the phrase made famous in the 1950's Joe McCarthy "Red Scare" trials. "I know it when I see it."

Your points are well taken, but to nitpick a little: "I know it when I see it" is best known from the 1964 US Supreme Court case in which Justice Potter Stewart declared he couldn't define "hard core pornography" (with the implication that everyone else could say the same thing). Maybe that makes it even more relevant. Not aware of any connection to the Red Scare era.

[Steve Ashton]

While you are correct that the use of the phrase is most commonly attributed to Justice Stewart, he was not the first to use the reasoning (excuse).
Another example is from the second Edward R. Murrow "See it now" episode when Sen. MacCarthy's popularity was waning, Mr. Murrow was publicly challenging Sen. MacCarthy to show proof of his accusations of communist spies and blackmailed homosexuals infiltration of the US State Dept. Mr. Murrow asked - "How do you know?" The response was "I'll know them when I see them, and I'll call it as I see it."
Both Justice Stewart's judgment and Sen.MacCarthy's "MacCarthyism" are often used in debate and rhetoric to illustrate instances where one person's, personal outlook, are used to illustrate the fallacy of "moral instinct".

[Touchstone]

While you are correct that the use of the phrase is most commonly attributed to Justice Stewart, he was not the first to use the reasoning (excuse).
Another example is from the second Edward R. Murrow "See it now" episode when Sen. MacCarthy's popularity was waning, Mr. Murrow was publicly challenging Sen. MacCarthy to show proof of his accusations of communist spies and blackmailed homosexuals infiltration of the US State Dept. Mr. Murrow asked - "How do you know?" The response was "I'll know them when I see them, and I'll call it as I see it."
Both Justice Stewart's judgment and Sen.MacCarthy's "MacCarthyism" are often used in debate and rhetoric to illustrate instances where one person's, personal outlook, are used to illustrate the fallacy of "moral instinct".

I did not know this! Thanks for that.