I would like to submit a proposal to the membership

[Steve Ashton]

The three Kilt style forums have been a problem since day one.

The Historical section does not seem to be the problem. The difference between the Traditional and the Contemporary is where all the problems are.

Then Alan H. posted about his trip to Scotland and something clicked.

In Scotland the kilt is considered special. It is worn for Highland Games, weddings, proms, and other events where Highland outfits are expected.
The same could be said for the way our traditionalist view the kilt.
We always see the traditionalists posting pics of how the kilt can be worn for these special events. These outfits look distinctly out of place on the street. They need the Highland event context to fit in.

The Modernists are posting pics of how the kilt can be worn as everyday clothing. What you would wear if you take the pants out of the picture.
This is how I dress. Even in the pic I post with the three guys is to me, normal everyday wear. I am not going to a Highland Games or to a wedding. I'm going to the shop or to the office or to the supermarket.

What would the membership think if we re-defined the three sections and based what would be posted based on the reason you are wearing the kilt?

For example - We could re-define the Historical section to something like - Historical and Costume Wear.
In this section you would post if you were a reinactor. If you were putting together a Historically based outfit. Or if you were going to a costume ball or Halloween. This would also cover stage costumes.

The Traditional section could be re-defined like - Highland Event Wear -
In this section you would post if you were going to wear your kilt to a Highland Games, a dress dinner, wedding or prom.
You would also post here if the reason you were putting on a kilt is to go to any Highland themed event.
I think this would cover about 99% of the posts currently in the Traditional section.
My thinking is that when the traditionalist do post they are almost always going to some event and they are wearing Highland Attire.

The Modern section could be re-defined like - Modern Street Wear -
In this section you would post if you think of the kilt as just another piece of clothing. Going about your daily life and doing normal daily things.
Those like me who wear the kilt everyday would post here. If you are going to the beach or walking the dog you would post here.
The idea is that you are not planning on going to any special Highland themed event or function.

Perhaps looking at our outfits like this would help with the current problem where everyone is gauged by the traditional dress standards.
Utilikilts, would have a place that was comfortable to post in without being held to and compared to some traditional mode of dress.
My three amigos photo would be instantly recognized as street wear and the traditionalist would know why I am dressing like that.
Photos of guys at Grandfather Mtn. in their Bonnets, laird's plaids and cromach's would be comfortable in the Highland Event section because it fits with what they are trying to get across with their outfits.

What does the rabble think about this idea? Do you think it would solve the problems we seem to have with the current wording of the three sections?
Would a re-definition of the three sections like this give our modernists a comfortable place to post without being compared to some highland ideal they were not trying to emulate in the first place?

I would like to hear from our traditionalist and also, more importantly, from our modernists. @Alan H would this work for you?

Almost any idea or comment would be welcome at this stage.

[Father Bill]

Steve, I see so little in common between what I've seen you wear and Utilikilts or other kilts in our current contemporary grouping that I can't imagine in any way seeing them in the same subforum. You have nothing in common with say, the "Bad Piper." Those styles may need a fourth category for them.

Given that, I would like the concept.

[Mike in Dayton]

Steve, I see so little in common between what I've seen you wear and Utilikilts or other kilts in our current contemporary grouping that I can't imagine in any way seeing them in the same subforum. You have nothing in common with say, the "Bad Piper." Those styles may need a fourth category for them.

Given that, I would like the concept.

Maybe turn "modern street wear" into two groups: Modern Tartan Street Wear and Non-tartan Street Wear

Mike

[McMurdo]

While I like where you are going with this idea I am not sure about your definition of Modern Street Wear for the reasons Father Bill brings up above as well as others I will elaborate on below.
I have been a full time kilt wearer in the past I wore the kilt daily for something like 5 or 6 years. Most of the time I would be going into the office and would wear something akin to your example in the Three Amigos photo. Below is a photo of me in a fairly normal outfit for that time.



To my way of thinking even without the crommach and Balmoral bonnet this is a Traditional outfit and would not really fit into the Modern Street Wear category it also would not fit Highland Event wear as I was going about my normal business that day.

[Elizabeth]

This is a timely post for me. I was trying to figure out where to post for ideas about using some fabric I have to make a multiuse woman's "costume" to wear to faires and maybe to Highland games. The categories you propose would have cleared up where to post. I would think the Historical and Costume forum would be the safe place for this sort of question?

[Nathan]

Steve,

Thanks for opening up this discussion. I think it might be a good idea to tweak the sections, because I think there could be more clarity, but I don't think it will address the so called problem that Alan H. raised and that you are seemingly trying to address.

The reason is because, in my recollection, most of these conversations happen in the Kilt Advice and the General Kilt Talk forums. Someone comes on and says "Hey whaddaya think?!" or "What hose should I wear with the MacWhatever tartan?" and people show their perspective when they weigh in. I don't think you're going to succeed in having people who think the kilt should be worn with respect to tradition keep quiet when asked for their opinion. I don't think xmarks would be served by having them keep quiet.

The non-traditional folks can chime in too. As long as everyone plays nice in the sandbox, I don't see that as a problem. I don't go to the contemporary forum and I don't weigh in on threads in there because I know they're not asking for my opinion there. However, if someone asks about clan tartans etc... in the General Kilt Talk section, it seems fair game to share my (traditional) views on tartan selection.

In my view, the only thing that will change the proportion of traditional threads versus non-traditional threads is if non-traditionalist members post more interesting threads and comment on them more.

That said, regarding your suggestion, if you're going to tweak things, I'm not sure the setting has as much to do with the choice as the perspective of the person. Certainly I've seen every type of look at the same Highland Games and a Burns Night isn't exactly a Highland event, it's a Lowland event. What about Tartan Tuesday? I wear traditional attire and Raven wears utility style garments. We enjoy pints together. Another issue I have is that traditional attire is both modern and contemporary. It's just more conservative than other fashion choices. Calling other styles modern implies that traditional is antiquated and that's inaccurate.

I don't think it has to do with the construction of the kilt or where it's worn, but rather, the taste of the wearer. So what about this:

Traditional Approaches to Kilt Wearing This is a section to discuss time tested traditional views on kilt wearing. "Now" with due respect given to "then".

Non-Traditional Approaches to Kilt Wearing: This is a section for those who march to the beat of a different drummer. Whether you wear a traditional kilt in a non-traditional manner or enjoy new styles of kilt made in non-traditional ways or out of non-traditional materials, this is the section to strut your stuff.

Historical Approaches to Kilt Wearing: This is the section to discuss how the kilt was worn in various periods in its history. Reenactors and textile history buffs, this is the place for you!

And, to be inclusive, maybe two more sections:

Neo-Traditional approaches to kilt wearing: This is a section for people who enjoy emulating the look advocated by the Highland wedding industry such as like white hose, tartan flashes, semi-dress sporrans, ruche ties, ghillie brogues, pseudo-jacobite shirts and other fashion trends that, although they haven't all stood the test of time, are nonetheless 'of the moment'.

Theatrical approaches to kilt wearing: This is a place for people who enjoy emulating the attire of Hollywood movies and putting together historically questionable outfits perhaps consisting of woad or plenty of edged weapon replicas just for the fun of it. This is for the Bravehearts and the Duncan MacLeod of the Clan MacLeods to gather.

Would that cover everyone?

[kiltedrennie]

This is a timely post for me. I was trying to figure out where to post for ideas about using some fabric I have to make a multiuse woman's "costume" to wear to faires and maybe to Highland games. The categories you propose would have cleared up where to post. I would think the Historical and Costume forum would be the safe place for this sort of question?

This sounds like a perfect example of a post I would expect to see in the Historical and Costume forum.

[davidlpope]

My concern is that most of what I see at American Highland games is not THCD. If you categorize by the type of event, then you'll have a wide range of clothing worn to that event, much of it by folks who simply don't know better. Jut because someone attends a Highland games does not mean thy are dressed traditionally. We've defined THCD and have folks working on a photo-essay. I think the Trad forum is good as-is. Perhaps the non-traditional kilt folks can weigh in about any changes they'd want in their subforum.

[Nathan]

My concern is that most of what I see at American Highland games is not THCD. If you categorize by the type of event, then you'll have a wide range of clothing worn to that event, much of it by folks who simply don't know better. Jut because someone attends a Highland games does not mean thy are dressed traditionally. We've defined THCD and have folks working on a photo-essay. I think the Trad forum is good as-is. Perhaps the non-traditional kilt folks can weigh in about any changes they'd want in their subforum.

Yep. Photo essay is almost done, too folks.

[ThistleDown]

On the surface I agree that "how the kilt is worn" is far more relevant to this forum than the kilt-makers' "how the kilt is made" we have been shoe-horning in for the past couple of years.

I don't see significant difference between "traditional" and "modern" manners of dress, however, since both are "today" by definition. The problem is that we keep on throwing in old catalogs, Landseer and Ansell prints and pics of the 1930s-1950s as though they are examples for today. They are history. If we wear Highland dress in the manner of those examples we are costuming as described by Steve in his first point.

I like Nathan's "...Approaches" to how the wearer wears his/her kilt.

I wear Highland dress most days in the week. This morning that consisted of a Freedom olive kilt and this evening an inherited tartan traditional one. All day I have been dressed 'modern' and with form-follows-function as a precept.