What makes vintage sgian dubh so expensive - are they worth the price..?

[Troglodyte]

Something along the lines of this question has been asked on this forum before, but it seems that a definitive answer has yet to be given.

For some, a plain stainless steel blade stuck into a bit of wood for a handle, and then trimed with silver to make it decorative and appealing, has no attractions. And with that lack of attraction, there is the sum-of-its-parts argument which takes us back to basic material costs.

So what's the big deal..?

After all, a more practical and itilitarian knife can be found for a fracion of the cost of a good vintage sgian, and, as Just William asked about a century ago, what's the point of a knife that you can't do damage with?

And yet vintage sgians have a great following, and are highly collectable.

Most of the vintage ones I have seen fall into a couple of categories - the hand-made and hallmarked silver-trimmed of familiar design, and the exceptional.

The exceptional are all in museums or private collections, and command hundreds (if not thousands) at auction, so for the majority of us here, I guess the other category is our main concern.

Lets start with the handle. The moulded resin version appears to be the entry-level standard, and are frequently a very near copy of a more expensive model, but the hand-carved wood or horn takes things up a few notches. The woods are usually bog-oak which is very nice, but the bulk seem to be the blackwood used by bagpipe-makers, and very good use of the off-cuts and remnants.

There is no standard pattern of style for the handle, and the carver can display his imagination and a great deal of skill, and any slight imperfections enhance the final result. And when seen en masse, the varity of shape, size and design is obvious - something for everyone, in other words.

Next we have the silver trim - but this can be brass, nickel, or plated, so the use of hallmarks is an essential clue. The trims seem to go from the plain minimum, with no engraving or chasing, to the heavily cast with thistle motifs, lions and the like. This, again, is where individual taste comes into play.

Polished steel blades seem to be the norm, with stainless retaining its bright shine with less care, and sometimes these are engraved or etched in some way - not the same extent that a sword might be, but again there is variety.

Certain makers have a cache to their name, and so more competitive appeal when it comes to auction, and regimental sgians have their following, too.

DSCF7010.jpg DSCF7012.jpg DSCF7017.jpg

The line-up in the pictures shows something of the variety available, and the style-matching of the engraving in the sporran cantle and sgian is appealing. The two sgians together is a useful comparison, as one is worth ten or more times the other.

But the question remains - are they worth the price..?

[ShaunMaxwell]

Accidental double post

[ShaunMaxwell]

Most of the examples you show are what I’d consider to be classic “dressy” or more formal sgians, with elaborate carving, silver mounts with some type of stone — more wearable art than practical tool. And if you’re looking for “the real deal” in this type of sgian, it will likely be an antique or something contemporary made by a highly skilled maker creating specialty items, the scarcity of which allows them to charge a premium for their work. Basically, it’s supply and demand. A McLaren supercar costs more than a Toyota Camry.

That said, I think a Camry is far more practical, and a typical “day” sgian would likely get a lot more use than something more suited for formal dress occasions. The sgian I carry least is the fanciest of my small collection:



Personally, I prefer a proper high carbon blade and more simple handle as I prefer a knife to be more functional than decorative. On the rare formal occasion, I’ll carry the silver mounted option (which also has a high carbon blade! 🙂)

Personal preference, utility and budget are all a factor.

Cheers,

SM

[ASinclair]

I have one sgian dubh that I think is simple and practical enough for daywear and nice enough for evening wear. It was made by a local bladesmith.



It has a rosewood handle with a silver celtic dragon, stainless steel ferrule, and a sharp 1084 steel blade.

[Troglodyte]

Most of the examples you show are what I’d consider to be classic “dressy” or more formal sgians, with elaborate carving, silver mounts with some type of stone — more wearable art than practical tool. And if you’re looking for “the real deal” in this type of sgian, it will likely be an antique or something contemporary made by a highly skilled maker creating specialty items, the scarcity of which allows them to charge a premium for their work. Basically, it’s supply and demand. A McLaren supercar costs more than a Toyota Camry.

That said, I think a Camry is far more practical, and a typical “day” sgian would likely get a lot more use than something more suited for formal dress occasions. The sgian I carry least is the fanciest of my small collection:



Personally, I prefer a proper high carbon blade and more simple handle as I prefer a knife to be more functional than decorative. On the rare formal occasion, I’ll carry the silver mounted option (which also has a high carbon blade! 🙂)

Personal preference, utility and budget are all a factor.

Cheers,

SM

A nice little line-up, is this...

Both practical and decorative, which is what most of the most of us want. In other words, a knife we are happy to use for general purposes, one that we like the look of, and which feels right.

As for the car analogy, I'm more a Volvo man - both in the reliable practiality of the marque and the solid, no nonsense style a sgian would be if made by Volvo.

Some of those you show fall into that category nicely!

[OC Richard]

I like to take the long view on these things.

I don't know when, early 19th century?? the various Highland regiments introduced sginean for Officers and Pipers.



It would be interesting to know when, because from the 18th century up until around the Crimean War some regiments dressed their pipers in what amounted to civilian livery, upon which post-Crimean Highland military dress was based.

If Pipers wearing sginean predated Officers it would be yet another example of that process.

In any case sginean weren't all that popular with Victorian civilians. Their popularity seems to have taken off around 1900.

The oldest catalogue I have is 1909 Leckie Graham's Glasgow. Here's their full page of sginean:



The old sginean were nearly always slender, very lightweight, and smooth on the back. Note that the Leckie Graham's catalogue emphasises their suitability for dancing, for that's when sginean would normally be worn, with Evening Dress for Balls etc.

So many modern sginean are bulky and heavy, quite unsuited for comfortable wearing while dancing.

[Troglodyte]

I like to take the long view on these things.

I don't know when, early 19th century?? the various Highland regiments introduced sginean for Officers and Pipers.



It would be interesting to know when, because from the 18th century up until around the Crimean War some regiments dressed their pipers in what amounted to civilian livery, upon which post-Crimean Highland military dress was based.

If Pipers wearing sginean predated Officers it would be yet another example of that process.

In any case sginean weren't all that popular with Victorian civilians. Their popularity seems to have taken off around 1900.

The oldest catalogue I have is 1909 Leckie Graham's Glasgow. Here's their full page of sginean:



The old sginean were nearly always slender, very lightweight, and smooth on the back. Note that the Leckie Graham's catalogue emphasises their suitability for dancing, for that's when sginean would normally be worn, with Evening Dress for Balls etc.

So many modern sginean are bulky and heavy, quite unsuited for comfortable wearing while dancing.

These old catalogues are a very useful guide to the retail price of items both back at the time and now.

The prices quoted show them to be about the average weekly earnings for a working man in 1908, while, with average earnings now being somewhere approaching £700 per week, the modern equivalent is still just as costly.

I have seen a list of items a WWI officer in a Highland regiment was expected to equip himself with at his own cost. A 'good quality' hair sporran would have set him back £3-15/- (three pounds fifteen shillings). This amounts to £3.75 ($4.87) in modern terms, but which would be around £2,100 in today's values.

I wonder if Highland dress buyers a century or more ago thought they were good value and worth the price - which kind of brings us back to my ititial question.

[PiperPadre]

Something along the lines of this question has been asked on this forum before, but it seems that a definitive answer has yet to be given.

For some, a plain stainless steel blade stuck into a bit of wood for a handle, and then trimed with silver to make it decorative and appealing, has no attractions. And with that lack of attraction, there is the sum-of-its-parts argument which takes us back to basic material costs.

So what's the big deal..?

After all, a more practical and itilitarian knife can be found for a fracion of the cost of a good vintage sgian, and, as Just William asked about a century ago, what's the point of a knife that you can't do damage with?

And yet vintage sgians have a great following, and are highly collectable.

Most of the vintage ones I have seen fall into a couple of categories - the hand-made and hallmarked silver-trimmed of familiar design, and the exceptional.

The exceptional are all in museums or private collections, and command hundreds (if not thousands) at auction, so for the majority of us here, I guess the other category is our main concern.

Lets start with the handle. The moulded resin version appears to be the entry-level standard, and are frequently a very near copy of a more expensive model, but the hand-carved wood or horn takes things up a few notches. The woods are usually bog-oak which is very nice, but the bulk seem to be the blackwood used by bagpipe-makers, and very good use of the off-cuts and remnants.

There is no standard pattern of style for the handle, and the carver can display his imagination and a great deal of skill, and any slight imperfections enhance the final result. And when seen en masse, the varity of shape, size and design is obvious - something for everyone, in other words.

Next we have the silver trim - but this can be brass, nickel, or plated, so the use of hallmarks is an essential clue. The trims seem to go from the plain minimum, with no engraving or chasing, to the heavily cast with thistle motifs, lions and the like. This, again, is where individual taste comes into play.

Polished steel blades seem to be the norm, with stainless retaining its bright shine with less care, and sometimes these are engraved or etched in some way - not the same extent that a sword might be, but again there is variety.

Certain makers have a cache to their name, and so more competitive appeal when it comes to auction, and regimental sgians have their following, too.

DSCF7010.jpg DSCF7012.jpg DSCF7017.jpg

The line-up in the pictures shows something of the variety available, and the style-matching of the engraving in the sporran cantle and sgian is appealing. The two sgians together is a useful comparison, as one is worth ten or more times the other.

But the question remains - are they worth the price..?

“Are they worth the price?”

Yes, and no. I’ve got a beautiful sgian dubh: ebony handle (I guess), silver, cairngorm. Lovely in its simplicity. A friend got it for me when in Scotland but I never would have gotten something so expensive for myself. So, yes, if someone else is paying.

[Jock Scot]

I can't say that I have ever considered if my SD is traditional, or, its value, or, what it might cost to replace it. It belonged to an uncle from, I suppose, new and from that point of view its irreplaceable and is probably traditional. As to value or, I suppose, replacement value I have not ever thought about it and I hope I never have to.