Lord Lyon taking football clubs to task over badges

[RectaPete]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34882922

What does everybody think of this? These two club badges were deemed too close to official coats of arms despite containing elements (namely, letters within the shield) forbidden in official grants. I know from that that these aren't official, but there is still the risk they could be mistaken for the real thing by people outside heraldry. I still think it's a bit overboard from the Lord Lyon, particularly regarding that these clubs have to spend thousands on designing a new logo when they're hardly glamorous or rich. Of course, YMMV.

[Liam]

I am not familiar with the heraldry laws, but if something has been in use for 60 years or so the doors to the barn were opened long ago.

[GrainReaper]

Laws are laws, like it or not, this law has been around for a long long time, so as much as I think it's absurd it IS THE LAW OF THE LAND and as such, they must obey.

[OC Richard]

I'm sure the logo for Coca-Cola breaks Heraldic Law too.

The question is, is the logo of a firm/business/corporation "heraldry"?

[Cygnus]

The interesting thing to note from the article is that the Lyon Court only became involved after a complaint from a member of the public; so I would hardly say it's Lord Lyon "going after" football clubs, as once it came to the Court's attention, they had no choice but to investigate and perform their duty of enforcing the law.

It is unfortunate for the club, in this case, but the law is hardly a secret and avoiding something overtly heraldic in nature would not have been too difficult to do from the outset.

I also want to make a minor correction: one of the interviewees referred to the logo as a "crest", though a crest, despite common usage of the word, is only the element displayed atop the helmet in a heraldic achievement and does not describe the shield or coat of arms.

[Steve Ashton]

And just in case anyone who may be wondering-----


Our X Marks Crest ---



Was seen by the former Lord Lyon, David Sellars, and described as "A handsome crest".

So I guess we do not have to worry.

While some may see the center as containing a St. Andrews cross it is actually a letter "X".

[GrainReaper]

And just in case anyone who may be wondering-----


Our X Marks Crest ---



Was seen by the former Lord Lyon, David Sellars, and described as "A handsome crest".

So I guess we do not have to worry.

While some may see the center as containing a St. Andrews cross it is actually a letter "X".

@Steve Ashton

Were it in violation it wouldn't stop me
Because I'm a bit of a scofflaw you see
With this badge that I wear
With nary a care
A member of X-Marks I be!

[Blupiper]

Maybe some canny graphics arts person could incorporate the 'A' and 'Y' in Ayr with the 'R' to create a saltire-like shape that could evoke the saltire without running afoul of the heraldry laws. Ah, well. As a Yank, I am too far removed and ignorant of the pertinent law to really 'have a dog in the hunt.'

JMB

[tripleblessed]

The question is, is the logo of a firm/business/corporation "heraldry"?

Not aimed at OC, as I feel sure he is as well-informed on this as he is elsewhere, but indeed prompted by that line.
While I will admit my work with Coca-Cola predates my exposure to much talk of heraldry, I think the logo has no
element which would qualify as heraldry. It's protection comes from copyright law. It could possibly come under
the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court if Coca-Cola decided to pony up the fees for a grant of corporate arms, which
start slightly north of twenty-five hundred pounds. Other heraldry organizations would, of course have their own
process, fees, and various levels of jurisdiction. The Lyon Court has no jurisdiction over U.S. corporations, except
their heraldic displays in Scotland.

The laws governing heraldry in Scotland are considerably more ancient than sixty years, and are well known. The
Lyon Court tends to be somewhat merciful if the display is not someone's arms misused without authority and no
claim of arms is made. It clearly might be overlooked for quite some time, but when a complaint is registered, it must
be processed. Complaint having been made, Lyon Court is merely enforcing laws as written.

If any feel this process is unfair to the clubs, try telling the trooper who pulls you over on any major U.S. interstate
highway that you've been driving above the speed limit for the last sixty years without being pulled over, so the state
has forfeited it's right to prosecute you. I have my suspicions it would result in more than a warning, which is basically
where the clubs stand.

[CamelCody]

Laws are laws, like it or not, this law has been around for a long long time, so as much as I think it's absurd it IS THE LAW OF THE LAND and as such, they must obey.

I'm sure our Scottish forebears would have followed the law exactly. Lord knows the scots were not one to rebel against the letter of the law. the words 'they must obey' would probably have been antipathy to the them as they should be to us.