Newbie Intro and Gold Buttons

[Lehane]

Hi all,

I am a newbie (at 72 LOL) who is trying to connect back to my Celtic Heritage (Irish). Back in my day immigrants were trying to assimilate and I, like a bunch of others in my generation, really didn't identify with Celtic things, other than, green beer, perhaps?

I think the Scots have done much better at preserving traditions than we Irish have. At any rate I have started a Celtic Club in my community for all Celts and I have begun wearing the kilt more frequently. So comfortable, who knew? LOL

I have also accumulated a range of kilts and jackets. They all have silver (pewter) buttons.

I have searched the forums for 'gold buttons' and found some replies and opinions but mostly about brass, not gold.

I have hung around the forums long enough to know that there are a lot of diverse opinions (strong ;) )from strict traditionalists to 'wear it if you want it' proponents.

So excuse me if I missed something, but, here is my question(s). Why silver buttons? and why square/diamond? Is it a faux pas to use some nice gold(tone) buttons round or square. Would gold (classy, subdued) buttons be an acceptable personal expression on say a Sherrifmuir/PC for formal affairs? Or also instead of horn/leather on a tweed argyle.

Thanks in advance for comments or links to forum topics/stickies I may have missed.

Jim

[RichardtheLarge]

Hi all,

I am a newbie (at 72 LOL) who is trying to connect back to my Celtic Heritage (Irish). Back in my day immigrants were trying to assimilate and I, like a bunch of others in my generation, really didn't identify with Celtic things, other than, green beer, perhaps?

I think the Scots have done much better at preserving traditions than we Irish have. At any rate I have started a Celtic Club in my community for all Celts and I have begun wearing the kilt more frequently. So comfortable, who knew? LOL

I have also accumulated a range of kilts and jackets. They all have silver (pewter) buttons.

I have searched the forums for 'gold buttons' and found some replies and opinions but mostly about brass, not gold.

I have hung around the forums long enough to know that there are a lot of diverse opinions (strong ;) )from strict traditionalists to 'wear it if you want it' proponents.

So excuse me if I missed something, but, here is my question(s). Why silver buttons? and why square/diamond? Is it a faux pas to use some nice gold(tone) buttons round or square. Would gold (classy, subdued) buttons be an acceptable personal expression on say a Sherrifmuir/PC for formal affairs? Or also instead of horn/leather on a tweed argyle.

Thanks in advance for comments or links to forum topics/stickies I may have missed.

Jim

Traditional rules say that gold tone brass buttons or stag buttons are for daywear events, whereas chrome or pewter (or sterling, I suppose) are metals for “full morning dress” and “eveningwear”. Many people have only one kilt jacket, if they have one at all, so I suspect the manufacturers are trying to provide a jacket that can be dressy daywear and eveningwear both.

With that being said, I don’t mind yellow metals for eveningwear. If it were going to be upheld as an important rule then many wedding rings would be invalidated for black and white tie events.

The rules, however, say black leather and white metals for evening/full morning dress and brown leather and yellow metals for daywear.

[Lehane]

Traditional rules say that gold tone brass buttons or stag buttons are for daywear events, whereas chrome or pewter (or sterling, I suppose) are metals for “full morning dress” and “eveningwear”. Many people have only one kilt jacket, if they have one at all, so I suspect the manufacturers are trying to provide a jacket that can be dressy daywear and eveningwear both.

With that being said, I don’t mind yellow metals for eveningwear. If it were going to be upheld as an important rule then many wedding rings would be invalidated for black and white tie events.

The rules, however, say black leather and white metals for evening/full morning dress and brown leather and yellow metals for daywear.

Thanks Richard. That is sort of counter intuitive considering gold is generally held as more precious than silver. But lots of things seem to be reversed at times. ;)

I continued to surf the forums and found the sticky on black tie and which had the old ad for evening wear. The ad says the coatee is available with silver, pewter, GILT and other decorative buttons so as always there is nothing so constant as change.

I looked at my black Sherrifmuir to see what effort would be required to change them and came to full stop. The button are not sewn but have rings through the shank holes. Very sturdy indeed. Not hard to change most but quite are few would require undoing the lining in the sleeves and shoulders. So the S is destined to stay as is.

In keeping with your comments though the dark blue tweed argyle may get a make over.

Learning a lot here. Thanks!

Jim

[davidlpope]

One thing to consider is that Highland evening dress has a lot more "bling" than other styles of formal dress. Compare my gold-filled cufflinks for a regular dinner jacket to sporran cantles, belt buckles, sgian dubhs, dirks, metal buttons on Highland evening jackets, etc.

As a result, it would be very expensive to have mounted all these accessories in gold. Silver, while precious, is much less costly than gold and over time one can assemble a respectable silver or silver-plated collection of accessories.

I think one must also consider that when these traditions started, there simply wasn't cheap rhodium, etc. plating, so "silver-colored" metals were actually silver or silver-plated.

If you really prefer the look of round, gold buttons, knock yourself out. But I think the allure of true silver (sterling or plated) accents to Highland evening attire are much classier.

[Lehane]

One thing to consider is that Highland evening dress has a lot more "bling" than other styles of formal dress. Compare my gold-filled cufflinks for a regular dinner jacket to sporran cantles, belt buckles, sgian dubhs, dirks, metal buttons on Highland evening jackets, etc.

As a result, it would be very expensive to have mounted all these accessories in gold. Silver, while precious, is much less costly than gold and over time one can assemble a respectable silver or silver-plated collection of accessories.

I think one must also consider that when these traditions started, there simply wasn't cheap rhodium, etc. plating, so "silver-colored" metals were actually silver or silver-plated.

If you really prefer the look of round, gold buttons, knock yourself out. But I think the allure of true silver (sterling or plated) accents to Highland evening attire are much classier.

Thanks. I don't plan to wear a buckle with formal wear but I see your point with the sporran and the rest. Once you go gold you never go - er ah not sure how to end that.

You do reinforce my desire to use gold day time and tweed since sporrans don't have cantles, no dirk, etc. and gold buckles can be had. Thanks!

[Benning Boy]

I took an oppoite tack. I had the chrome buttons on my black Argyle replaced with fabric covered buttons using a textured black silk the exact shade as the jacket. The buttons disappear at a short distance. The jacket lining had to be opened to make the change as the buttons aren't stitched all the way through.

Likewise the faux stag horn buttons on my kilt kut suit coat replaced with regular suit buttons. The jacket is grey as are the buttons.

Gold military buttons are an option, although repurposing them is against regulation. At one time silver buttons were permitted on Army dress uniforms, but the are no longer. I had my silver buttons sewn on a dark blue Ike jacket. Perhaps I'm stretching things a bit but i decided as the buttons are no longer official putting them on my jacket would not violate regulations.

[Lehane]

I'm ex-USAF so I can appreciate your 'stealth' mode approach. I have lost my 'girlish' figure hence the Sherrifmuir for the upcoming Burns dinner.

I believe that the Sherrifmuir treats tall-fats in a kinder gentler fashion. LOL

I wouldn't worry about regulations and repurposing buttons unless you are still AD and subject to some type of action.

I can't repurpose anything AF as we never had a decent uniform. Our class A's looked like greyhound bus drivers and our mess dress looked like waiters.

The only decent uniform we had we stole from the Navy which was a navy shirt with military creases and tie. Of course the AF de-authorized it. I guess we looked too sharp. LOL

[RichardtheLarge]

I took an oppoite tack. I had the chrome buttons on my black Argyle replaced with fabric covered buttons using a textured black silk the exact shade as the jacket. The buttons disappear at a short distance. The jacket lining had to be opened to make the change as the buttons aren't stitched all the way through.

Likewise the faux stag horn buttons on my kilt kut suit coat replaced with regular suit buttons. The jacket is grey as are the buttons.

Gold military buttons are an option, although repurposing them is against regulation. At one time silver buttons were permitted on Army dress uniforms, but the are no longer. I had my silver buttons sewn on a dark blue Ike jacket. Perhaps I'm stretching things a bit but i decided as the buttons are no longer official putting them on my jacket would not violate regulations.

Your solution for the Argyle sounds great. Modern eyes find the chrome on black a bit flashy and yours is clearly more understated. I have a similar solution for black tie—a hidden placket tuxedo shirt, with no buttons or studs visible. Simple, clean, elegant, and still very formal in appearance.

[Dr Bee]

Why silver buttons? and why square/diamond? Is it a faux pas to use some nice gold(tone) buttons round or square. Would gold (classy, subdued) buttons be an acceptable personal expression on say a Sherrifmuir/PC for formal affairs?

I too have thought about changing the buttons on a kilt jacket. My problem has been simply that I've yet to find buttons of sufficient quality and aesthetic appeal to make it worth the effort. Having worn gold buttons on Royal Navy uniforms many years ago, I can say that I much prefer silver buttons on a black jacket - but I accept gold buttons might look good on other colours - perhaps some velvet evening jackets would look good with gold buttons. In fact a recent thread on here had picture of Lord Thurso wearing what looked like a green velvet regulation doublet with gold buttons - albeit the buttons were arranged to his personal specification - but overall it looked okay.

As for round v square, I'd be keen to try the swap on my regulation doublet or on my Sheriffmuir (both black) if and when I find some round silver buttons which I consider to be good enough - I think it would look great - and if in the end I thought it didn't look good enough I could always swap back to square ones.

Anyway, to answer your question, no I don't think it would be a faux pas.

[MacRobert's Reply]

I picked up a used archer green Kenmore doublet with square gold-plated buttons a few years ago. Sadly one button was missing and finding a duplicate impossible, so I replaced them all with 19th Century silver-plated losenge shaped ones. The doublet was made in 1961 by Stewart Christie of Edinburgh, a premier bespoke tailor. The gold against the dark green looked fine!