Dress codes and changing trends

[Calgacus]

There have been a few very interesting threads posted lately discussing various aspects of Highland dress and when it is appropriate to wear it. Now, I know one should not attempt to draw direct parallels with Saxon dress codes, but please forgive me if I do something akin to that in an effort to help pin all this down. For reference, the recent threads that have drawn my attention are:-

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...r-doing-82339/

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-argyll-82157/

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...porrans-81994/

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...e-scots-82482/

http://www.highlandclans.co.uk/Argyl...lt_Jacket.html

When I try to assimilate all the information from these threads, I come up with the following set of dress codes (give or take a wee bit):-

White tie equivalent:
Doublet, jabot & cuffs
Tartan or diced hose
Buckled brogues
Worn at state occasions and some pretty fancy balls

Black tie equivalent:
Prince Charlie coatee
Tartan, diced or coloured hose
Buckled, ghillie, or fine oxfords/brogues
Worn to the opera, dinners & parties where black tie is stipulated

Morning dress equivalent:
Black silver buttoned Argyll
Coloured hose
Black brogues
Worn to daytime weddings & the races

Lounge suit equivalent:
Tweed Argyll
Coloured hose
Brogues
Worn to weddings, funerals, evening events where black tie not stipulated

Day wear, "oot 'n' aboot":
Tweed Argyll or pullover, Barbour etc.
Worn at all other times

Now the first question is "Have I got that about right?", given that I have glossed over any finer points in the interests of brevity.

Assuming I have, it occurs to me that kilt wearers, on this forum and elsewhere, appear to be bucking the current trend for more and more casual dress and are if anything dressing at a higher level than dress codes strictly call for. I see doublets in photos non white tie events, I see PCs worn here there and everywhere even though black tie invites are rare these days. I see PCs and black barathea Argylls worn to events which are technically 'lounge suit' events, I see tweed Argylls at Highland Games and recitals when the Saxons are wearing something rather less than a suit, and I see photos of the occasional (often extremely beautiful) hair sporran worn with daywear.

Now some further questions. Am I correct, or just seeing selectively?
Is this the peacock in us trying to get out?
Are we sub-consciously rebelling against the current slide into pyjamas and onesies for all occasions?
Is it 'wrong' to deviate from the accepted codes in this way?
Is this a trend that will stick and eventually alter the accepted norms?
Is this a good thing?
Is it worthwhile having a dress codes 'sticky'?
Am I talking out of my hoop?

[Phil]

There is always a great deal of agonising in this forum about dress codes. The only thing I would say is that a Prince Charlie is evening wear although this doesn't seem to prevent many wearing it to daytime weddings. Probably mainly because they will be hired and worn in ignorance. Not sure about this "white tie" equivalent thing with doublet and jabot though.

[Nathan]

There have been a few very interesting threads posted lately discussing various aspects of Highland dress and when it is appropriate to wear it. Now, I know one should not attempt to draw direct parallels with Saxon dress codes, but please forgive me if I do something akin to that in an effort to help pin all this down. For reference, the recent threads that have drawn my attention are:-

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...r-doing-82339/

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-argyll-82157/

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...porrans-81994/

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...e-scots-82482/

http://www.highlandclans.co.uk/Argyl...lt_Jacket.html

When I try to assimilate all the information from these threads, I come up with the following set of dress codes (give or take a wee bit):-

White tie equivalent:
Doublet, jabot & cuffs
Tartan or diced hose
Buckled brogues
Worn at state occasions and some pretty fancy balls

Black tie equivalent:
Prince Charlie coatee
Tartan, diced or coloured hose
Buckled, ghillie, or fine oxfords/brogues
Worn to the opera, dinners & parties where black tie is stipulated

Morning dress equivalent:
Black silver buttoned Argyll
Coloured hose
Black brogues
Worn to daytime weddings & the races

Lounge suit equivalent:
Tweed Argyll
Coloured hose
Brogues
Worn to weddings, funerals, evening events where black tie not stipulated

Day wear, "oot 'n' aboot":
Tweed Argyll or pullover, Barbour etc.
Worn at all other times

Now the first question is "Have I got that about right?", given that I have glossed over any finer points in the interests of brevity.

Assuming I have, it occurs to me that kilt wearers, on this forum and elsewhere, appear to be bucking the current trend for more and more casual dress and are if anything dressing at a higher level than dress codes strictly call for. I see doublets in photos non white tie events, I see PCs worn here there and everywhere even though black tie invites are rare these days. I see PCs and black barathea Argylls worn to events which are technically 'lounge suit' events, I see tweed Argylls at Highland Games and recitals when the Saxons are wearing something rather less than a suit, and I see photos of the occasional (often extremely beautiful) hair sporran worn with daywear.

Now some further questions. Am I correct, or just seeing selectively?
Is this the peacock in us trying to get out?
Are we sub-consciously rebelling against the current slide into pyjamas and onesies for all occasions?
Is it 'wrong' to deviate from the accepted codes in this way?
Is this a trend that will stick and eventually alter the accepted norms?
Is this a good thing?
Is it worthwhile having a dress codes 'sticky'?
Am I talking out of my hoop?

I don't think you've got it wrong , per se, but I think you're a touch narrow. This is my understanding:

White tie equivalent:
Doublet, jabot & cuffs (or black bow tie with Highland attire)
(I think Orionson ably demonstrated that a properly worn coatee with white waistcoat and white bowtie can also work for white tie but there may be some debate about this).
Tartan or diced hose
ornate fur sporran with white metal cantle (or sporran molach)
Buckled brogues (or patent leather court shoes or dancing pumps)
Black silver mounted evening sgian dubh
Worn at state occasions and some pretty fancy balls


Black tie equivalent:
Prince Charlie coatee (or doublet - especially without jabot and cuffs such as a Regulation doublet - most formal. Black dress Argyll with three button waistcoat and black bow tie -least formal )
Tartan, diced or coloured hose (avoid lovat or earthy muted coloured hose)
Buckled, ghillie, or fine oxfords/brogues
fur sporran with ornate metal cantle (some wear a sporran molach)
Black silver mounted evening sgian dubh
Worn to the opera, dinners & parties where black tie is stipulated

Morning dress equivalent:
Black silver buttoned Argyll with five button waistcoat and long tie.
l prefer a plain black leather sporran but kilt outfitters maintain (much to Jock's shegrin) that rather than the rubbish bin, this is the place for the semi-dress sporran.
Coloured hose
Black brogues

Worn to daytime weddings & the races

Lounge suit equivalent:
Tweed Argyll
Coloured hose
simple leather flap or hunting sporran
Brogues
less ornate sgian dubh perhaps stag handled or wood with less silver, jewels etc...)
Worn to weddings, funerals, evening events where black tie not stipulated

Day wear, "oot 'n' aboot":
Tweed Argyll or pullover, Barbour etc.
Coloured hose
Worn at all other times

[Father Bill]

From the wee bit I know, I think you've made a darned good stab at it, and certainly you've re-routed and opened a useful conversation. In some ways, this is what much of XMarks is really all about.

Guid an ye!

[Calgacus]

I don't disagree with your amendments, Nathan, my narrowness came from brevity.

*Edit* Actually, maybe I do.
Is it really correct to wear a BBSBA to a black tie affair?
Is it really correct to wear a BBSBA to an office dinner dance (usually 'lounge suit' affairs)?

[Spartan Tartan]

A very interesting thread... I will be watching this one with great interest.

[MacRobert's Reply]

Overall, that's a reasonable shot Calgacus.

For a bit more detail have a look at http://www.electricscotland.com/weddings/guide11.htm. This was written in the context of weddings and includes contributions from X Markers from both sides of the pond, albeit edited by me.

Black tie ranges from the Black Argyll, through the PC up to various doublets - not all black-tie events are equally formal. The PC even turns up at white-tie events, usually with a black bow tie but occasionally with a white tie and marcella waistcoat.

Are we bucking the trend to dress down? Probably, but we are not alone. There are wearers of Anglo-Saxon clothing who are also swimming against the tide. The plethora of PCs is, at least in part, to do with the hire shops promoting this jacket for all kinds of kilted events.

Highland Scots, in particular, often manage to combine sartorial conservatism with just a hint of the peacock display.

Rebellion against onesies? Oh yes!!

[JohntheBiker]

I think that Nathan's fine tuning is closer to the mark, although I believe that a tweed Argyll and waistcoat can be worn when morning suit is called for. I've seen pictures of that at royal weddings. However, I can't think of many occasions when morning suits are called for, at least on this side of the pond. I have had occasion to wear a morning suit precisely once (brother's wedding, many, many years ago).

[Jock Scot]

I think that Nathan's fine tuning is closer to the mark, although I believe that a tweed Argyll and waistcoat can be worn when morning suit is called for. I've seen pictures of that at royal weddings. However, I can't think of many occasions when morning suits are called for, at least on this side of the pond. I have had occasion to wear a morning suit precisely once (brother's wedding, many, many years ago).

I am pretty sure I know the picture that you refer to. I will see if I can find it. We need to be careful here. The invitation was for "morning dress OR(my italics) lounge suits", so the gentleman wearing the tweed argyll was perfectly attired in lounge suit equivalent. Pictures should carry health warnings as it is so easy to draw the wrong conclusions from them, without details of context.

Found it!Is this the one JB?

[Tobus]

...it occurs to me that kilt wearers, on this forum and elsewhere, appear to be bucking the current trend for more and more casual dress and are if anything dressing at a higher level than dress codes strictly call for. I see doublets in photos non white tie events, I see PCs worn here there and everywhere even though black tie invites are rare these days. I see PCs and black barathea Argylls worn to events which are technically 'lounge suit' events, I see tweed Argylls at Highland Games and recitals when the Saxons are wearing something rather less than a suit, and I see photos of the occasional (often extremely beautiful) hair sporran worn with daywear.

In reality, there are two things going on here, and they must be separated. Some kilt wearers are indeed bucking the trend toward casual dress by "upping the ante", as it were. However, some of the things you are describing are based purely on ignorance or misinformation about what is expected. I have seen people wearing PC coatees at Highland Games, not because they wanted to look sharper than others, but because they didn't even know it was an evening jacket.

I'm one of those who wears a tweed Argyll jacket and tie to Highland Games while the rest of the (non-kilt-wearing) slobs are in t-shirts and flip-flops. But then again, I often wear a tie and jacket to work, while everyone else is in polo-style shirts. I'm just old-fashioned that way, I guess.

Now some further questions. Am I correct, or just seeing selectively?
Is this the peacock in us trying to get out?
Are we sub-consciously rebelling against the current slide into pyjamas and onesies for all occasions?
Is it 'wrong' to deviate from the accepted codes in this way?
Is this a trend that will stick and eventually alter the accepted norms?
Is this a good thing?
Is it worthwhile having a dress codes 'sticky'?
Am I talking out of my hoop?

I think those are great questions! Some here, undoubtedly, have the peacock thing going on (and it's always tempting to overdo it with Highland dress, what with all the finery available). But there is a group of people here, such as myself, Kyle (creagdubh), Nathan, ShaunMaxwell, and many others, who I think are just regular folks who want to do it right, present themselves with dignity and a healthy modicum of self-respect, and follow a tradition of being well-dressed gentlemen. (Note that I use the word gentlemen in the modern context, not with any reference to titles or nobility.)

This may stray a bit from the original questions, or perhaps be Too Much Information, but I think there is a larger issue at stake here. Modern western culture is undergoing some pretty radical changes. The way people dress is only one of many indicators of a cultural decline. Other indicators are the usage of language (both spoken and written), popular music, education levels, religious demographics, popular entertainment, political trends, etc. Some of these subjects are, of course, off limits to this particular discussion. But suffice it to say that western culture is shifting radically away from the traditional, and I'm sure there are many who would argue that this is not a "decline" at all. I disagree. While there are various aspects to traditional culture that are better left in the past, and upon which we can greatly improve our society, I think the overall trend is not good.

I won't presume to speak for others, but I have no interest in going along with the flow. Dressing conservatively is only one of many ways in which I am making my own humble attempt to preserve the world I know. Some may see it as "rebelling" against the current trend towards ridiculously inappropriate casual dress. But I don't really think of it in those terms when I get dressed each morning for work, or when I put on the kilt. It has nothing to do with trying to dress contrary to others. But it has everything to do with dressing according to a set of values that is respectful, conservative, and traditional.

There are times when I do dress casually. But the difference, I think, is that most people dress that way ALL THE TIME, and don't understand why it's inappropriate to do so. Sadly, we live in an age where this has been going on for so long that there is an entire generation of people who weren't raised with any sense of appropriateness in their manner of dress. Their parents did not teach it to them. Within another generation or two, it will be lost entirely.

It remains to be seen whether the slide towards pyjamas and onesies will continue in our society, or if there will be a turnaround. There does seem to be a trend with the young hipsters (or whatever they call themselves these days; I can't keep up with it) to dress a little more sharply. However, from what I've seen, it's an odd sort of mocking of traditional dress. Wearing fedoras and ties that are only loosely knotted. Or wearing t-shirts with sport coats. It's not a return to any sort of distinguished manner of dress, but at least it's not muscle shirts and droopy shorts.

Eh, sorry for the ramble. I do think it's a good thing for folks here to try to wear kilts in a traditional manner, and I hope it's a trend that picks up and spills over into everyday life.