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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanook
Here too I would have to disagree. Most of Savile Row as well as Highland garb specialists such as Wm Anderson were outfitters of military uniforms.
While some Savile Row tailors did (and still do) military tailoring, that work represented only a fraction of their everyday trade-- civilian clothing. In the North, the high end tailors were Jardines (in Edinburgh) and Stewart Christies (also in Edinburgh, and still trading). While both firms did military tailoring (Stewart Christie still does the uniforms for the Royal Company of Archers) their bread and butter trade was, and still is, the civilian market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanook
The cut-down tails coat--- short Spencer Jacket--- became quite the rage among dandies in the late 1790s and was quickly morphed by others with military touches into the Hussar.
The short "riding coat" existed much earlier than the 1790s
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanook
The tails coat itself only became mainstream decades later in Regency period--- when everyone seemed to want to dress like Beau Brummell. The basis of the look, however, was as much military as civilian and the "civilian" elements more imported from the Continent (French revolutionary style) than home grown. One needs to recall the impact of Napoleon Bonaparte on French fashion in the early 1880s.
While George Brummell (1778-1840) did have some influence on men's fashion early in the Regency (1811-1820) it is the scandal which drove him from Court that has caused his name (and extravagances) to survive his downfall. As for "le Petite Empereur" by 1814 Napoleon was tucked up on St. Helena, eating arsenic-laden wall paper, and having very little to do with influencing much of anything, let alone men's fashion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanook
This also lead to rather spectacular uniforms. The Napoleonic Wars, in turn, exposed these military uniforms to a very wide audience and elements were feed back into civilian design. There were, of course, within Europe much counter-reaction to ""Sans Coulotte", none-the-less, French Revolutionary style also ended the dominance of breeches and brought forth the style of trousers.
There are a number of references above which I feel are inaccurate based on the dates, and events, you've mentioned. Rather than go into a lengthy dissertation on the subject, I'll merely point out that "trousers" in the from of trews, were worn fully half a century before the French Revolution. Of course, in Ireland the wearing of trousers goes back much farther. At the time of the revolution both the tails coat and trousers were regularly seen on well dressed gentlemen in France and elsewhere.
Mens "panatloons" had been getting longer since Tudor times until, by the end of the 17th century, Elizabethean "slops" had reached the knee. Here they paused briefly before continuing their march south, toward the ankles. The "knee britches" remained fashionable for nearly a century until the availability of cheap cloth made trousers more affordable, first among the fashionable and then among the masses...
BUT this is supposed to be about Prince Charlie coatees, not a discussion about the influence of the (defeated) French Army on military fashion, or how "beau" Brummell taught the Nobs to tie a tie... so, let's give this a rest and get back to the topic! :)
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Nanook
Welcome back. It's good to see your erudition on the board again.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beloitpiper
The subject to the right, William Duff (Atholeman), was always one of my favorite studies by MacLeay. In part the awesome beard :cool: but also his everyday appearance (represented here). Duff, who was a game-watcher for the Duke of Athole, was said to be a picturesque character whose usual unkempt appearance was tidied up by the artist(!!).
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Where Have All The Sporrans Gone?
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Originally Posted by Prester John
When did this change? Anyone?
Do you mean "when did the rot set in?" I'd go with the 1960s.
The twilight was the period between the World Wars (when you could still get "nice" things) and the "Golden Age" was sort of 1890-1914, the age we generally refer to as Edwardian (and Yes I know Victoria went t*ts up in 1901 and Edward did the same in 1911). The bespoke items from this period are fantastic examples of craftsmanship. Even the massed produced things were extremely well finished. But by the 1960s all the old craftsmen were pretty much gone, the dies used to stamp out clan badges and the like, in Birmingham, were pretty much worn out, and British labour was a joke-- just look what happened to the British auto industry.
What the 1960s gave us was the homogenized Scotsman, a parody of his elegant forebearers dressed as he was in an off the peg jacket that only fit where it touched, held together with fake horn buttons, with a chunk of coloured glass crowning a sgian dubh imported from Pakistan that hid in the top of his kilt-rental white socks, and wearing a kilt that was too short in the waist, too long in the hem, and often pieced together from the remains left over from another job. The whole art of elegantly wearing highland attire went down the pan with a gurgle that resounded from Sauchie Hall Street to Prince's Street and across the waters to the New World.
Where once a plethora of small shops did bespoke work, or provided made to measure jackets and waistcoats we now find those large retailers whose only interest lies in pushing as much "tartan tat" as possible out the door. The sad thing is that they stay in business due to the ignorance, and belligerence, of their clientele. Ignorant because they know no better, and belligerent when their poor mimicry of proper dress is brought to their attention, no mater how kindly the critique may be phrased.
Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."
And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."
And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.
That's a lovely fantasy but unlikely to be most peoples reality in today's world. Unlike the fictional Mr. Steed of Avengers fame, http://www.joodiff.com/images/articles/std001.jpg I doubt most people could justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing. I am afraid your vision can only be shared by an economic elite. Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted.
Best regards,
Jake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoldHighlander
The subject to the right, William Duff (Atholeman), was always one of my favorite studies by MacLeay. In part the awesome beard :cool: but also his everyday appearance (represented here). Duff, who was a game-watcher for the Duke of Athole, was said to be a picturesque character whose usual unkempt appearance was tidied up by the artist(!!).
Oh my, I thought it to be James MacMillan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beloitpiper
I am really liking the Tartan Argyle the gentleman on the left is wearing.
I know I posted this pic but is there any significance to the glengarry on the ground?
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He dropped it? Wind? The hat can move?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccga3359
Oh my, I thought it to be James MacMillan.
I am really liking the Tartan Argyle the gentleman on the left is wearing.
I know I posted this pic but is there any significance to the glengarry on the ground?
Uhm, Mr. Brown was about to perform the Highland version of the Mexican Hat Dance?:hide:
http://www.mexfoldanco.org/px/jarabepaint.jpg
Best regards,
Jake
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Interesting Victorian Sporrans
One of the great things about MacLeay's paintings of Queen Victoria's highland retainers, is not just that its a snapshot of a time long since gone, but all the wonderful sporrans :)
I'm going to post three more below that are somewhat different than the rest (most are the hairy 'goat', in some variation or the other).
The first of Duncan Drummond & Andrew Murray, show's Murray with the 'standard' badger:
http://www.geocities.com/mackay_1745...ndmurray12.jpg
next is Archibald MacKintosh & Alexander MacKintosh. Note the sporrans, with their raccoon heads, though I question if the body of the sporran is 'coon. In a larger version the fur doesn't look like it, espically when I compare to the raccoon's I've worked with:
http://www.geocities.com/mackay_1745...ckintosh22.jpg
finally this one of Kenneth MacSwyde & Donald MacAulay (Harris Men) I find interesting not only for the unusual sporran that MacSwyde is wearing, but also for the hairy waist belt & baldric he has on as well:
http://www.geocities.com/mackay_1745...macaulay18.jpg
It should be noted that the men in the MacLeay portraits were chosen by the clan chiefs themselves. These portraits were commissioned by Queen Victoria around 1865, and were exhibited in Bond Street, London in 1869, where they caused a sensation and a limited edition printing was done in 1870 (they have since been reproduced).
The originals are preserved in the Royal Library at Windsor Castle.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."
And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.
I sympathize with this post greatly. Different people will have different perspectives, of course, based not only on economics, but also on your attidude regarding highland dress. If you view the kilt as simply a fun thing to wear to go pub crawling on, or support your local football club, your perspective will differ from those who view the kilt as a heritage garment first and foremost. I know many people on this forum fall into both categories, and that's ok, too.
As for me, I wear kilts all the time as part of my professional attire. Since I work with Highland dress for a living, I always try to put forth a good impression, which is not to say I always dress in jacket and tie, but even when I dress very casually I like to look nice. For that reason, and simply for the fact that I wear kilts on a very frequent basis, I have over the past several years developed a deep appreciation for fine quality Highland dress items (and consequently other types of items, as well), specifically hand crafted items.
This is why I love my Ferguson Britt sporrans. Anyone who holds one in their hands can tell you that they exude hand crafted quality. This is why my favorite hose are the ones my wife hand knits for me. This is why I love Harris tweed. And so on....
My point in posting this, however, is not to tout my own personal preferences, but to suggest that investing in such quality items can actually be a form of frugality. While buying a quality hand crafted item like those mentioned will undoubtedly cost more up front, in the long run it may actually be less expensive. Items such as these will last many years -- often a lifetime. Less expensive items will often wear out and need frequent replacement. In this age of consumerism where everything we buy is seen as disposable, how refreshing is it to wear a sporran and think, one day my grandson will wear this and think of his grandfather...
Yes, quality costs money, but the funny thing about quality -- it's always a sound investment!
Aye,
Matt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
My point in posting this, however, is not to tout my own personal preferences, but to suggest that investing in such quality items can actually be a form of frugality. While buying a quality hand crafted item like those mentioned will undoubtedly cost more up front, in the long run it may actually be less expensive. Items such as these will last many years -- often a lifetime. Less expensive items will often wear out and need frequent replacement. In this age of consumerism where everything we buy is seen as disposable, how refreshing is it to wear a sporran and think, one day my grandson will wear this and think of his grandfather...
Yes, quality costs money, but the funny thing about quality -- it's always a sound investment!
Nicely said Matt. While I like to get a "good deal" like anyone else, I too appreciate quality & would rather spend money on something that'll last than something that'll break after a couple of uses (I've learned this the hard way), something that drives my wife nuts :lol:
On the MacLeary prints I posted, from time to time the system I have them stored on has a hiccup, thus they maynot appear for a wee bit. I apologize to everyone. These prints can be obtained from many sources including the STA: http://www.tartansauthority-shop.com...g/MacLeay.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan ofRathdown
................................................ This likeness of Mr. Brown was painted while at Her Majesty's estate at Frogmore on the Isle of Wight.
Alas, not quite true! Frogmore is within Windsor Home Park, close by Windsor Castle in Berkshire, to the west of London. It was there that HM Queen Victoria had built the Royal Mausoleum in which her Consort, Prince Albert, was the first of many members of our Royal Family to be buried.
You are, I fear, confusing Frogmore at Windsor with Osborne House, Her Majesty's favourite residence (and where she died in 1901), on the Isle of Wight. This, for those unfamiliar with our geography, lies centrally some six miles off the south coast of the United Kingdom. It is Osborne House that forms the backdrop to the watercolour of John Brown.
Take care,
Ham.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
My point in posting this, however, is not to tout my own personal preferences, but to suggest that investing in such quality items can actually be a form of frugality. While buying a quality hand crafted item like those mentioned will undoubtedly cost more up front, in the long run it may actually be less expensive. Items such as these will last many years -- often a lifetime. Less expensive items will often wear out and need frequent replacement. In this age of consumerism where everything we buy is seen as disposable, how refreshing is it to wear a sporran and think, one day my grandson will wear this and think of his grandfather...
Yes, quality costs money, but the funny thing about quality -- it's always a sound investment!
Aye,
Matt
I always thought this was the true definition of frugality. Frugal isn't cheap, it's getting the most for your dollar. Example: I could buy a pair of Wal*Mart jeans for $10 and have them fall apart, or I could buy a pair of Carharts that will last my entire life. The jeans would be cheap, but the Carharts are frugal. I think that's why I'm confused as to how "The Frugal Corner" not it's name.....
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Quality Never Goes Out of Fashion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey@Arms
That's a lovely fantasy but unlikely to be most peoples reality in today's world. Unlike the fictional Mr. Steed of Avengers fame, http://www.joodiff.com/images/articles/std001.jpg I doubt most people could justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing. I am afraid your vision can only be shared by an economic elite. Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted.
Best regards,
Jake
Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.
To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."
I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.
At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.
So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.
You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.
With 100% of my best regards,
Scott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
You are, I fear, confusing Frogmore at Windsor with Osborne House, Her Majesty's favourite residence (and where she died in 1901), on the Isle of Wight. This, for those unfamiliar with our geography, lies centrally some six miles off the south coast of the United Kingdom. It is Osborne House that forms the backdrop to the watercolour of John Brown.
Take care,
Ham.
You spotted the deliberate mistake and so you win this week's prize! :)
All the best,
Scott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.
To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."
I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.
At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.
So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.
You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.
With 100% of my best regards,
Scott
I agree whole heartedly! Now where can I get a quality rubber chicken?
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Those are some great paintings, but you'll notice none of the subjects are wearing anything like a Prince Charlie coatee....
Like the original poster, I'm really interested in when that style of jacket became popular as formal highland dress, I've been digging around on the 'net since this thread started, and have not found any useful info.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.
To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."
I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.
At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.
So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.
You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.
With 100% of my best regards,
Scott
Scott, very well put. And believe me I would love nothing better to be the proud owner of said umbrella, (and truth be told to be John Steed:cool:)
Best regards,
Jake
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In the 1950's if you wore highland dress your wore a tweed jacket and waistcoat during the day and, in the evening, a Montrose of Military double breasted doublet made of velvet. Long-haired sporans had pretty well disappeared apart from a few aristocratic families who tend to pass these things down from father to son. In fact Stewart Christie mentioned by MacMillan of Rathdown managed to survive by altering their clothing for this purpose and are still going strong. By the 1960's people were far more interested in the youth fashions of the day and virtually no-one wore highland dress apart from the dancing and Mod fraternity, everyone else went CASUAL - bell bottom pants and mini-skirts. After Margaret Thatcher managed to alienate 99% of the Scottish population in the 1980's kilt wearing suddenly became a statement of identity again and by the 1990's was the uniform of choice for every international rugby and football match and also for weddings and other formal events. The hire companies responded to this new demand by supplying "one size fits all" garments such as kilts with 3 straps which could accommodate a variety of shapes and because the Prince Charlie didn't button up it could stretch across a range of waistlines and became the standard outfit. In fact it became much like Henry Ford's dictum "Any colour you like as long as it's black" with the result that (almost) everyone nowadays regards highland dress as this pastiche created by the kilt-rental trade of Prince Charlie with white hose and ghillie brogues. What the pictures posted earlier demonstrate, though, is that the only dress rules in Victorian times were that there weren't any. If you got an invite to a royal knees-up then the Lord Chamberlain had a set of rules telling you exactly what you could wear, otherwise high society types knew exactly what to wear and proles like us just didn't get invited, couldn't afford the fancy dress, and had a great time getting drunk at ceilidhs.
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I'd love to see some photos of kilted Mods...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusty
I'd love to see some photos of kilted Mods...
Not the same kind of Mods - in this context an annual get together for Gaelic speakers celebrating their language and traditions. The National Mod it is called and regularly attracts competitors from Canada.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
In the 1950's if you wore highland dress your wore a tweed jacket and waistcoat during the day and, in the evening, a Montrose of Military double breasted doublet made of velvet...
Thank Phil, this does a nice job of answering many of my questions!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
If you got an invite to a royal knees-up then the Lord Chamberlain had a set of rules telling you exactly what you could wear, otherwise high society types knew exactly what to wear and proles like us just didn't get invited, couldn't afford the fancy dress, and had a great time getting drunk at ceilidhs.
Hahah, my family was definitely the latter!...still is, actually. :p
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I am impressed by my fellow XMTS members...you ask a question and immediately receive intelligent and thorough answers. Well done.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
While some Savile Row tailors did (and still do) military tailoring, that work represented only a fraction of their everyday trade-- civilian clothing.
So developed Saville Row.
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The short "riding coat" existed much earlier than the 1790s
One of the great inputs, beyond military, was equestrian fashion.
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As for "le Petite Empereur" by 1814 Napoleon was tucked up on St. Helena, eating arsenic-laden wall paper, and having very little to do with influencing much of anything, let alone men's fashion.
I meant to type 1800s and not 1880s. I just am not allowed to edit anything I write here--- so the awkward policy of this forum towards me.
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I'll merely point out that "trousers" in the from of trews, were worn fully half a century before the French Revolution.
Your missing the point of "fashion". The kilt, for example, was worn before the Scottish Romantic period but it was only during it and above all through the influence of, among others, the Highland Society of London that it came into its own as fashion. "Blue jeans" were worn since Jacob Youphes invented them but came into "fashion" (other than as working clothing) no earlier than the mid-1950s (Marlon Brando in "The Wild One" and a year later matched up with boots on James Dean in "Rebel Without a Cause") if not even the 1970s as mainstream fashion (the "designer jean").
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Nanook,
No offense intended, but I can't follow your line of argument-- for example you quote "equestrian fashion" as though it is somehow different than "civilian fashion"... huh? Anyhow this is getting too far off topic (Prince Charlie Coatees) to spend anymore time discussing things like the time line of the social acceptability of Levis (which I'd though made the big break though when Gene Autry had a tuxedo made from Levi denim before the second world war). Anyhow, I think we're going to have to amicably disagree on the military/civilian origins of the Prince Charlie coatee as we seem to be the only guys interested in it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
Nanook,
No offense intended, but I can't follow your line of argument-- for example you quote "equestrian fashion" as though it is somehow different than "civilian fashion"... huh?
It was. Equestrian garb and fashion were quite distinct up well into the 20th century. The divisions become less as sporting clothing became business dress.
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Anyhow this is getting too far off topic (Prince Charlie Coatees)
One could check with Wm Anderson to find out the dating on their earliest patterns for their "Kinloch Anderson Coatee".
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Gene Autry had a tuxedo made from Levi denim before the second world war).
Gene Autry was a "singing cowboy" and hardly a role model of fashion except for other "singing cowboys". He was never hip or cool but the counter pole to the urban chic fashion of Fred Astaire as someone for the masses to want to identify with rather than aspire to become.
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we seem to be the only guys interested in it.
One can't judge the interest by the volume of participation.
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The Prince Charlie is a very similar cut to the type of mess jackets worn by the military and is probably a "civilianised" version. Officers would wear their full dress uniforms to social events and civilians would want something similar to look as good and impress the ladies - it just didn't have the big epaulettes and silver or gold braid. The double breasted Montrose is also known as a military doublet and no doubt has similar origins. There does not appear to be any equestrian link though. The type of jacket worn by the hunting fraternity (the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible) was generally bright red (pink they call it) and a longer jacket but without any of the embellishments such as cuff details, epaulettes, silver buttons, tashes etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
The Prince Charlie is a very similar cut to the type of mess jackets worn by the military and is probably a "civilianised" version. Officers would wear their full dress uniforms to social events and civilians would want something similar to look as good and impress the ladies - it just didn't have the big epaulettes and silver or gold braid. The double breasted Montrose is also known as a military doublet and no doubt has similar origins. There does not appear to be any equestrian link though. The type of jacket worn by the hunting fraternity (the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible) was generally bright red (pink they call it) and a longer jacket but without any of the embellishments such as cuff details, epaulettes, silver buttons, tashes etc.
I have seen many hunting pictures,of the 1800's period,where the huntsmen are wearing a jacket with short tails very much like a PC.My old hunting jacket,cut more like a long sports coat, was yellow(lemon we call it) with silver crested buttons,green collar with a silver bullion fox on either side of the collar.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock Scot
I have seen many hunting pictures,of the 1800's period,where the huntsmen are wearing a jacket with short tails very much like a PC.My old hunting jacket,cut more like a long sports coat, was yellow(lemon we call it) with silver crested buttons,green collar with a silver bullion fox on either side of the collar.
I looked but couldn't find any of the jackets you describe. Here is what is mostly worn nowadays -
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...y/foxhunt5.jpg
and a couple of older Victorian prints and they are pretty well the same -
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ity/004fox.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ity/006fox.jpg.
I suppose, like everything else, there would be regional variations though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
The Prince Charlie is a very similar cut to the type of mess jackets worn by the military and is probably a "civilianised" version.
So my suggestion (again our 1921 sample is indeed in Archer green as confirmed when set alongside a Highland Regiments Nr1).
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Originally Posted by gilmore
Welcome back. It's good to see your erudition on the board again.
Lets see how the chieftains respond.
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Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
Where once a plethora of small shops did bespoke work, or provided made to measure jackets and waistcoats
A pair of bespoke trousers from a (if the "the") premiere tailor in the U.S. cost in the mid 1950s around $100 USD (that was more than a month's rent for a middle class flat in New York, Chicago or Los Angeles). Suits and jackets, of course, were priced higher. The price of a jacket or suit from the best of Saville Row or any of the top British tailors was, of course, a bit lower but earnings in the U.K. were also lower than the United States.
Already then things were in decline. The Roman style (Brioni and co) took the best of Saville Row and added industrial production and clever use of machines to make suits to rival the best of London at a lower price point and with a bit more flair. New machine in Germany and Italy took to producing textiles of high quality at a low price.
By the 1960s-- if not partially already in the 1950s-- the changing consumption patterns matched with industrial methods lead to a redefinition of men's clothing and with it extreme rationalization and fusing: "glue". It allowed for men's clothing to be more "fashionable" and inexpensive.
I know of NO maker of highland garb today that does not use machines and fusing for their jackets. A traditionally made jacket (tailored with hand stitched floating canvas and built up on the "old tradition") would cost maybe 2500 GBP (still using some modern methods) versus the 150-350 GBP class of most jackets (including those sold by first league shops such as Kinloch Anderson, Dege & Skinner, Haggarts of Aberfeldy, Campbell in Beauly etc).
Few of the afficiandos of highland garb here, I suspect, with all respects to workmanship and quality would be prepared to spend this kind of money.
Are todays glued jackets that much worse than those of old? Not really. Fusing materials have improved significantly over the past years and now holds up better to cleaning solvents than the wool to abrasion--- in other words, before the jacket starts to loose shape its already worn down. In the lower ranks many tailors would work fast and sloppy to try to make a living wage (working on a piece-meal basis). Today its done off-shore within multinational textile networks feeding into large multinational multi-market clothing companies. Quality control is higher.
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Hello Phil,I don't think we want to get into the hunting debate,do we?I rather think we may have opposing views! I think you are quite correct that the hunting jacket,as we know of it today,arrived in the early Victorian times.I was really talking about before that time.I should have made myself more clear.You are also correct to say that most hunts wear red coats,although Green( e.g. the Heythrop hunt),blue and buff(e.g. the Beaufort hunt) an yellow(e.g.the Berkley hunt) are also worn.
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I really don't have a view one way or the other about hunting although it is not a pursuit I have ever taken part in. If it is my repeating Oscar Wilde's quotation on the subject then I just think it is very amusing and quite accurate. The few horsey/hunting people I have met I have not found to be the most erudite except in matters equestrian so "unspeakable" is apt perhaps and I do not believe anyone eats foxes so "inedible" too is accurate. Please do not take offence though as I am sure you are the exception that proves the rule. I do think, though, that any of the jackets we wear nowadays will have originated in the 1800's and later and are more likely to owe their style to the type of jacket worn by the military as mess jackets than anything worn on horseback.
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Ok Phil, no offence taken and I hope none given.I should imagine that the "modern" hunting coat owes little to military origins,far too baggy and sensible,if my uniforms were anything to go by! Nevertheless a PC type of coat was worn as a uniform by the military and huntsmen(often one and the same) in pre Victorian times.I wonder if the idea was "re-invented" by some tailor in ,it appears,the 1920's and re launched as a PC?"There is nothing new in fashion",so I am told.
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Originally Posted by Nanook
I know of NO maker of highland garb today that does not use machines and fusing for their jackets. A traditionally made jacket (tailored with hand stitched floating canvas and built up on the "old tradition") would cost maybe 2500 GBP (still using some modern methods) versus the 150-350 GBP class of most jackets (including those sold by first league shops such as Kinloch Anderson, Dege & Skinner, Haggarts of Aberfeldy, Campbell in Beauly etc).
Few of the afficiandos of highland garb here, I suspect, with all respects to workmanship and quality would be prepared to spend this kind of money.
Stewart Christie here in Edinburgh still make traditionally bespoke tailored highlandwear (kilts and jackets) and I would imagine so do Dege & Skinner who are Saville Row tailors and, as such, everything has to be hand-made on the premises. I know that Kinloch Anderson now only supply "off the peg" jackets and refer you to Dege & Skinner if you want the proper bespoke item. I can't speak for the others but imagine that nowadays they will only do mass-produced as well. A bespoke jacket with silver buttons will set you back something in excess of £1200 ($2,331.95) but is a lifetime investment and something to hand on to future generations as a thing of beauty.
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Originally Posted by Phil
Stewart Christie here in Edinburgh still make traditionally bespoke tailored highlandwear (kilts and jackets) and I would imagine so do Dege & Skinner who are Saville Row tailors and, as such, everything has to be hand-made on the premises.
Saville Row is not what it once was. Rents have been on the rise and many companies have been leaving. Those that stay have picked up a lot of junk to sell. Even Anderson & Sheppard had to leave. Others like Gieves & Hawkes have turned to make their money with declining standards of ready-to-wear. With now Abercrombie & Fitch on the Row its only time before Massimo Dutti and eventually H&M (who already have some flagship locations) take over the area with offices, T-shirts and take-away coffee.
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I know that Kinloch Anderson now only supply "off the peg" jackets and refer you to Dege & Skinner if you want the proper bespoke item. I can't speak for the others but imagine that nowadays they will only do mass-produced as well.
Machines.
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A bespoke jacket with silver buttons will set you back something in excess of £1200 ($2,331.95)
That's a very good price--- much less than high grade ready to wear. I'd be suspicious of cut corner techniques such as fusing--- so-called "half-floating" is quite common among many self-declared "bespoke" tailors (it saves a lot of time and labour).
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but is a lifetime investment and something to hand on to future generations as a thing of beauty.
In clothing there is no such thing as a "lifetime investment". Even the finest traditional (heavy cloth against the trend of Super 100s and beyond) items do wear out--- even if they might not go out of style. Shoes might get patina but jackets get tattered.
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Are you in the clothing industry yourself? I don't know the nuts and bolts of the trade myself although I did examine the jacket during a couple of fittings. They make their bespoke items on the premises and I was able to examine this and other work in progress so I think you are perhaps generalising. They do, of course, sell ready to wear items as well as bespoke but I certainly wouldn't describe it as "junk" even if the fit is not perhaps the same.
I have 3 other bespoke jackets going back to the early 1950's (my father-in-law bought nothing else) none of which are in any way tattered, creased, shabby or worn out in any way despite fairly frequent use, and I fully expect them to stay that way (moths willing) so I do think a lifetime of 50+ years is a good investment. Fortunately there are still some firms for whom "planned obsolescence" is not in their vocabulary.
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