Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

When did this change? Anyone?

Do you mean "when did the rot set in?" I'd go with the 1960s.

The twilight was the period between the World Wars (when you could still get "nice" things) and the "Golden Age" was sort of 1890-1914, the age we generally refer to as Edwardian (and Yes I know Victoria went t*ts up in 1901 and Edward did the same in 1911). The bespoke items from this period are fantastic examples of craftsmanship. Even the massed produced things were extremely well finished. But by the 1960s all the old craftsmen were pretty much gone, the dies used to stamp out clan badges and the like, in Birmingham, were pretty much worn out, and British labour was a joke-- just look what happened to the British auto industry.

What the 1960s gave us was the homogenized Scotsman, a parody of his elegant forebearers dressed as he was in an off the peg jacket that only fit where it touched, held together with fake horn buttons, with a chunk of coloured glass crowning a sgian dubh imported from Pakistan that hid in the top of his kilt-rental white socks, and wearing a kilt that was too short in the waist, too long in the hem, and often pieced together from the remains left over from another job. The whole art of elegantly wearing highland attire went down the pan with a gurgle that resounded from Sauchie Hall Street to Prince's Street and across the waters to the New World.

Where once a plethora of small shops did bespoke work, or provided made to measure jackets and waistcoats we now find those large retailers whose only interest lies in pushing as much "tartan tat" as possible out the door. The sad thing is that they stay in business due to the ignorance, and belligerence, of their clientele. Ignorant because they know no better, and belligerent when their poor mimicry of proper dress is brought to their attention, no mater how kindly the critique may be phrased.

Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."

And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.

[Monkey@Arms]

Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."

And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.

That's a lovely fantasy but unlikely to be most peoples reality in today's world. Unlike the fictional Mr. Steed of Avengers fame, I doubt most people could justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing. I am afraid your vision can only be shared by an economic elite. Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted.

Best regards,

Jake

[BoldHighlander]

One of the great things about MacLeay's paintings of Queen Victoria's highland retainers, is not just that its a snapshot of a time long since gone, but all the wonderful sporrans

I'm going to post three more below that are somewhat different than the rest (most are the hairy 'goat', in some variation or the other).
The first of Duncan Drummond & Andrew Murray, show's Murray with the 'standard' badger:



next is Archibald MacKintosh & Alexander MacKintosh. Note the sporrans, with their raccoon heads, though I question if the body of the sporran is 'coon. In a larger version the fur doesn't look like it, espically when I compare to the raccoon's I've worked with:



finally this one of Kenneth MacSwyde & Donald MacAulay (Harris Men) I find interesting not only for the unusual sporran that MacSwyde is wearing, but also for the hairy waist belt & baldric he has on as well:



It should be noted that the men in the MacLeay portraits were chosen by the clan chiefs themselves. These portraits were commissioned by Queen Victoria around 1865, and were exhibited in Bond Street, London in 1869, where they caused a sensation and a limited edition printing was done in 1870 (they have since been reproduced).
The originals are preserved in the Royal Library at Windsor Castle.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

That's a lovely fantasy but unlikely to be most peoples reality in today's world. Unlike the fictional Mr. Steed of Avengers fame, I doubt most people could justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing. I am afraid your vision can only be shared by an economic elite. Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted.

Best regards,

Jake

Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.

To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."

I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.

At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.

So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.

You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.

With 100% of my best regards,
Scott

[ccga3359]

Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.

To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."

I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.

At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.

So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.

You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.

With 100% of my best regards,
Scott

I agree whole heartedly! Now where can I get a quality rubber chicken?

[Zardoz]

Those are some great paintings, but you'll notice none of the subjects are wearing anything like a Prince Charlie coatee....
Like the original poster, I'm really interested in when that style of jacket became popular as formal highland dress, I've been digging around on the 'net since this thread started, and have not found any useful info.

[Monkey@Arms]

Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.

To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."

I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.

At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.

So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.

You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.

With 100% of my best regards,
Scott

Scott, very well put. And believe me I would love nothing better to be the proud owner of said umbrella, (and truth be told to be John Steed)

Best regards,

Jake

[Phil]

In the 1950's if you wore highland dress your wore a tweed jacket and waistcoat during the day and, in the evening, a Montrose of Military double breasted doublet made of velvet. Long-haired sporans had pretty well disappeared apart from a few aristocratic families who tend to pass these things down from father to son. In fact Stewart Christie mentioned by MacMillan of Rathdown managed to survive by altering their clothing for this purpose and are still going strong. By the 1960's people were far more interested in the youth fashions of the day and virtually no-one wore highland dress apart from the dancing and Mod fraternity, everyone else went CASUAL - bell bottom pants and mini-skirts. After Margaret Thatcher managed to alienate 99% of the Scottish population in the 1980's kilt wearing suddenly became a statement of identity again and by the 1990's was the uniform of choice for every international rugby and football match and also for weddings and other formal events. The hire companies responded to this new demand by supplying "one size fits all" garments such as kilts with 3 straps which could accommodate a variety of shapes and because the Prince Charlie didn't button up it could stretch across a range of waistlines and became the standard outfit. In fact it became much like Henry Ford's dictum "Any colour you like as long as it's black" with the result that (almost) everyone nowadays regards highland dress as this pastiche created by the kilt-rental trade of Prince Charlie with white hose and ghillie brogues. What the pictures posted earlier demonstrate, though, is that the only dress rules in Victorian times were that there weren't any. If you got an invite to a royal knees-up then the Lord Chamberlain had a set of rules telling you exactly what you could wear, otherwise high society types knew exactly what to wear and proles like us just didn't get invited, couldn't afford the fancy dress, and had a great time getting drunk at ceilidhs.

[Clockwork John]

I'd love to see some photos of kilted Mods...

[Phil]

I'd love to see some photos of kilted Mods...

Not the same kind of Mods - in this context an annual get together for Gaelic speakers celebrating their language and traditions. The National Mod it is called and regularly attracts competitors from Canada.