I'm in Shoe Size Hades

[CDNSushi]

I figured I'd share this little anecdote with the rabble today.

It's really nothing new -- we've seen vanity sizing in both men's and women's clothing for years... And even if it weren't "vanity" sizing as such, no two manufacturers seem to agree on a standard system of measurement.

I thought shoes were different though. They're not. When I decided I wanted to buy some new boots for this fall/winter, I entered a Dantean circle of hell that I couldn't have imagined. Not only do manufacturers each seem to define shoe sizes differently, but even international shoe size charts do not seem to agree whatsoever.

This whole affair was brought about by the fact that I live in Lilliput, and the Lilliputian shoe sizes are simply inadequate here. If I want anything more than just a simple running shoe, I pretty much have to have it shipped in from abroad. But how to determine the correct size, as I will not have the privilege of trying anything on before I shell out a ton of cash for both the boots themselves and shipping?

My most logical premise, was to simply just measure my feet, and then using that raw measurement (in centimeters or inches) convert into whatever size I would need -- European sizing for something ordered from Europe, and US sizing for something ordered from the U.S. Well, it's nowhere NEAR that simple.

First of all, measuring one's feet is a challenge. If I had access to a Brannock Device, all would be cool... And searching Google for ways to measure your foot size yields some of the most ridiculous methods I've ever seen. 99% of them suggest standing on a piece of paper, tracing your foot with a pencil, measuring the markings from toe to heel, then subtracting 3/16" for the diameter of the pencil. There are SO many things wrong with that method, it's hard to know where to begin. It's nearly impossible to ensure that your pencil remains perpendicular at all times for starters, not to mention the fact that you are measuring something soft and irregularly-shaped... So I adopted a slightly more direct method. I figured that next best thing to a Brannock Device would be to imitate one the best way possible. I put my foot between two bricks, ensured they were square, then measured the length between the two bricks with a tape measure. So far so good... 28.0 cm... Measured the width of my foot the same way: 10.2cm.

Now the fun part... Finding ANY two charts on the Internet that match... Long story short -- I couldn't. After hours of research, I determined that my US shoe size is anywhere from a men's 10 to 11, European 42.5 to 44.5, UK 9.5 to 10.5. Which doesn't help AT ALL.

Even just simple running shoes aren't simply the size printed. If I order:

Nike, I'm a EUR 44 / UK 9 / US 10.
K-Swiss, EUR 43 / UK 9 / US 10
New Balance EUR 44 / UK 9.5 / US 10

Broadening this further, past the realm of running shoes, it gets even better.

According to brogueshoes.co.uk: EUR 42.5 / UK 8.5 / US 9.5
"Tim's Boots": EUR 44.5 / UK 10 / US 11
Zappos: EUR 44 / UK 10.5 / US 11
Overstock.com: EUR 43.5 / UK 9 / US 9.5

And it goes on, and on, and on, and on, and ON.

The ONLY sizes that actually made any sense were the Japanese sizes (which uses the raw centimeter measurement -- which is great, but good luck finding a size 28 shoe around these parts), and Mondopoint (which is an ISO standard, and used by NATO, which is also great, but who the heck uses Mondopoint???)

In the end, I think I will simply just find the style and make of boot I want, then e-mail the company with my raw foot measurement and have THEM tell ME what size I should order. But even then I'm not entirely convinced that I won't end up with an ill-fitting item.

Have any of the rabble had a similar experience? Or more generally, who among us has ordered shoes or boots over the Internet? How did it turn out? Did they fit? Were they true to size? I'm really, really curious.

[Chirs]

I have no words. That is the most convoluted thing I've heard in quite some time. And it is probably the reason why I don't buy over the internet (although I have never thought of it in those terms). I know that makes me foolish and old-fashioned but I have always had a need to touch a thing before I buy it. As such, I cannot offer any insights or commiseration in this case. But you do have my sympathies. I really don't know what I would do if I were in your shoes.

[O'Callaghan]

I ordered some shoes from an eBay ad. I ordered them slightly large and they do fit, but I ordered two pairs in different colours, same brand, style and size, and whilst they do fit, there is some discrepancy in size between one pair and the other!

[CDNSushi]

I really don't know what I would do if I were in your shoes.

... Or LACK thereof...

[CMcG]

<snip> I really don't know what I would do if I were in your shoes.

Very punny

I have only ordered shoes online that I have previously been able to try on in person first. This means one of two things. First is ordering replacement shoes for ones I have worn out. Second is finding a store that sells the shoe I want to buy and will let me try it on. Why not just buy it from the store you ask? Because I could probably find it cheaper online.

Once upon a time, I even had an Australian friend who was wearing a pair of boots I liked, let me try them on, then took my cash back to Oz in order to purchase a pair of said boots, and finally posted them to me. This was before Blundstones were commonly available in Canada and they cost a 1/3 of what one can now buy them for in Toronto.

If there was a place with free shipping and a no_questions_asked return policy, one might just order every size that is close and send back the ones that don't fit.

Lastly, there are bespoke shoes... any Japanese shoemakers who could make you a pair? There was also a recent thread about a custom shoe maker in the US who looks like they do internet sales:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...casions-69234/

[pascs]

Also the style of shoe can make a considerable difference to it fitting well or not. I can be a 43.5, 44.0, 44.5 depending on the shoe and style. Usually with a wider fitting i can wear a 44.0 but also need to take account of the type of socks and climate.

Warmer weather, feet swell up but thinner socks. Colder weather, feet dont swell up but socks are thicker

I recently bought a pair of beautiful shoes online but they are slightly too big, I think insoles will sort it out though

[ForresterModern]

Due to advancing weight and/or age added to the above described variabilities in standard (or lack thereof) shoe sizing I have varied between US size 12 and 14 over the last 5-8 years, and between standard and wide widths, depending on vendors, style, usage, and anticipated thickness of hosiery to be worn with them. Size twelve seems to generally be the place where US manufacturers stop making shoes in half sizes and only offer whole sizes above that, yet another issue to have to deal with in my case. Euro sizing at least accommodates a little more lattitude in bigger sizes in that regard, but then there is the variability between even more manufacturers to deal with again. Am I a 46, 47, or 48, or one of the half sizes that are sometimes available in between them? Aaarggh.

Your measurement techniques harken back to a different time nearly 30 years ago when it was harder to buy a decent winter hiking/snow boot (way before Goretex and cordura---in the days of mink oil waterproofing) and I ordered from LLBean by doing just exactly what you described, tracing my feet on paper placed on hard floor while I stood with my weight on them. That is how they requested I order (by phone from a catalogue, of course---how quaint) and they shipped via a relatively young and new agency known as Federal Express directly to my door---unusual back in those days---with one of the few moneyback return guarantees in the business at the time. The boots I got were perfect fits with the standard hiking socks of the day and I wore them for many years until they practically fell off my feet in pieces---at least 10 years an until they leaked enough water to warrant replacing them with a newer style waterproof boot. Not sure if LL Bean still works that way or not.

Nowadays if I have any need for new shoes I will either purchase them after trying them on directly (we have several major shoe manufacturers' outlet stores nearby) or order them online from one of the retailers that guarantee a good fit or a free return policy such as shoebuy.com (although their free return policy is only good within the US despite the fact that they do ship internationally).

I feel for you brother. I bet right about now you wish you either had a job that required international travel back to the US 4-6 times per year, or had an identical twin brother who was precisely the same weight as you who lived in the US to use as your sizing trial guinea pig. Good luck with that.

[tmattimore]

You have discovered the main failure of modern footwear marketing. There has never been a true set of standard shoe sizes with the exception of some militaries in a specific shoe.

All of these lasts (the form shoes are built upon) are marked 7.5 U.S. except the blue one which is marked 7 and is the longest. The last major survey I know of to coordinate shoe last sizes to feet was done by the U.S. Army in 1912 for the "Service Shoe Board", The U.S. army specified shoes be marked one size larger than actual for over 100 years just to deal with the G.I. who told the Q.M. that his shoe size was larger. Nike has done some surveys but does not place too strict a standard on subcontractors as most of their products are sold in retail outlets where they can be tried on. Lasts are usually made to fit a desginers image of what the finished shoe should look like.
I reccomend trying on as many shoes as you can in a style you like before ordering on line and then ordering from someone with an easy return policy.

My apologies as a shoemaker for the trouble and confusion but after 22 years of doing it I still get one wrong every now and then.
Sending actual measurements to a retailer will not help as they rarely if ever have the last the model was built on to compare measurements. If you are dealing with a small maker or bespoke maker the foot tracing and careful measurements should get you a 95% or better chance of a proper fit the first time. Shoe fit is also dependent on the shape of the foot, length of the arch (from heel to ball) length of the toes, proportion of width of heel to width of the ball and numerous other factors.

[Laird_M]

A trick I've used previously when ordering footware on line is to put sock on, stand on a peice of paper, draw around my feet, draw a centimetre scale by my foot and post it to the company.

So far, I've not had any issues, which I more than likely will from now on having said that...

[CDNSushi]

Tmattimore,

Thanks for your perspective from the shoemaker's end. It's insightful...

In the end, I settled on a Spanish bespoke company, and all their boots are handmade. I sent them my actual foot measurements (length and width) which, as I mentioned, I accomplished by putting my feet between two bricks (making sure they were square) and measuring the length with a tape measure. We'll see what happens. The boots weren't cheap, but not too bad either. €175 plus shipping.

In the mean time, if I need any more footwear, I'll just have to pay close attention to the sizing system they have up on their website, and perhaps send an e-mail or two to confirm things before actually going ahead and ordering from the site.