What makes a Scot?

[beloitpiper]

I noticed things got a bit Off Topic in the general section, so I'd like to move it here...to the Off Topic section.

Seanboy and some others were discussing what makes somebody a Scot. Here's what I think:

I don't really consider myself Irish or Scottish. The two halves of my family came from those places, which is why I think of myself as Celtic. I share an ethnicity with the people from those places, and that ethnicity has lended with it a strong shared culture. The Irish, Scots, Welsh, Bretons, and Galatians share a lot of culture, which has since been brought to the US, Canada, Australia, and even parts of South America (such as Y Wladfa and Montserrat).

I'm convinced the American/Canadian Celtic culture is far different from the Celtic traditions found in Ireland or Scotland. The music is related, but it certainly has evolved, just as dancing, clothing, and other traditions have evolved and changed in the New World. For example: American Bluegrass is rooted heavily in Irish and Scottish folk music, but is not totally the same. If it weren't for Celtic-Americans we wouldn't have Celtic punk like the ever-popular Dropkick Murphys. Cape Breton has developed it's own style of Step Dancing that comes from Irish Step Dancing, but is not totally the same and Contra Dancing, which is totally American, came from Scottish Country Dancing. Claddagh rings, worn by almost all of my Celtic friends here, are relatively rare in Ireland. Tweed caps, which one one my age (20) wore in Ireland, are worn by all of my Irish-American friends here in the US.

But we also don't forget our roots. We owe almost everything to our ancestors, and for that we like to celebrate. We have some really awesome Highland Games (Maxville, Grandfather Mountain) and Milwaukee's Irish Fest is the largest celebration of Irish music and culture in the world. We wear kilts, play bagpipes, a hold Burns Suppers. We bake soda bread, knit sweaters, and distill whiskey.

We have even created our own Celtic myths and legends in the US. There are the stories of William Wallace, Robert the Bruce, and Bonnie Prince Charlie in Scotland, but in the US, we have Davey Crockett, John Ross (who was a Cherokee Chief), and the 69th New York Infantry (the Irish Brigade) during the Civil War.

We have had a long, complex history of our own. We were both the upper class (over half of the signers of the Declaration of Independence could claim Scottish heritage) and the scum of society (No Irish Need Apply, etc.). Boston-Irish and Chicago-Irish even have their own sub cultures that other Celtic-Americans do not share! Sometimes we fought against our Celtic cousins (Andrew Jackson, of Ulster heritage, fought against Highlanders at the Battle of New Orleans), and other times, right beside them (numerous time during WWI and WWII).

So while I feel a strong connection to my cousins across the Atlantic, I am fiercely proud of my Celtic-American heritage and all the achievements that Celtic-Americans have given the world. Thomas Edison alone advanced the phonograph, motion picture, dictaphone, radio, and electric lamp! I love Scotland, and I just lived in Ireland for 4 months, but nothing would make me give up being a Celtic-American.

So I agree with Seanboy. I am not a Scot. I am a Scottish-American. A Celtic new-worlder. The DNA is there, but being a Celtic American certainly has it's differences from being Scottish or Irish.


What do you think? Oh, and be civil.

[Livingston]

Be civil? Thanks no fun. Oh well.

In my very humble opinion, I fell that I am first and foremost an American. Since the US is the vast melting pot of world, at least all of us that have had ancestors here for any length of time, we are each of too many different nationalities to difinitively say we are Scottish, French, English, Spanish or whatever. In the research I have done on my ancestors, I find that I am Scottish, English, Welsh, Norwegian, Spanish, French, German and... Well, I gave up at that point. If you base it on sur name, well, then I guess I'd be Scottish. So, for purposes of this board and in general, I fell that I am an American with Scottish heritage. And that's just my opinion.

[slohairt]

I'll be civil! If you're referring to the Celtic Nations discussion we had, you'll note that I respectfully but vehemently disagreed with most of seanboy's views.

What makes a Scot? Obviously the simplest answer would be someone born in Scotland. The rest are descendants using such terms as Scottish-American, Scottish-Canadian, Scottish-Australian, etc.

Greg, if the two halves of your family hail from Scotland and Ireland, that would make you more than just a Celt, it would make you a Gael. Think of the Irish language terms: Gael Albannach, Gael Éireannach, and Gael Mheiriceánach. You are an American Gael.

I suppose I would be Gael Cheanadach, but it's a bit different for me. I don't readily relate as much to the genealogy efforts of North Americans because I was born in Ireland (and spent a third of my life there), thus making my daughter the first-born generation here in Canada. I suppose I could relate in a way through my paternal grandmother, who was born in Scotland. I know much less about her family (Graham) and am just beginning to look into it.

So, it comes back to what I mentioned in another post about state citizenship and ethnicity/nationality. Someone born in the United States with Scottish ancestry is a Scottish-American, not a Scot. That would be someone specifically born in Scotland.

P.S. I'm fairly certain that Cape Breton dancing is from Scottish dancing. Cape Breton Island (Eilean Cheap Breatainn) was populated almost exclusively by Highlanders.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I am a Scottish-American.

There are no hyphenated Americans--
Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States

[Makeitstop]

Keeping things civil isn't always a good idea. Just ask my lawyer.


What makes a Scot? A mom and a dad, obviously.



But seriously, I look at things like this differently than most people. I'm an American because I am a citizen the country. It's a legal status. I have ancestors that were legally Scottish, but I am not.

You could also say I am an American because I was made in America, for whatever that is worth. Or because it is where I was raised and where I currently reside. These are far less meaningful but due to the influence of culture and the occasional usefulness of identifying people through nationality, these types of classifications are not completely worthless.

And then there is the blood. I am American because my ancestors were American (Europian and native) and in the same way I am Scottish, as well as about 50 other things that are known, and probably a hundred more that aren't. My problem with this type of classification is that it just seems silly to me. Trace back your family tree far enough, and you'll either find that you have ancestors from all over the world, or that you are extremely inbred. Really this focus on where our recent ancestors were from seems to lack perspective.

But the bigger issue to me is that the difference between the Scottish and the English is an imaginary line. It's not like we are dealing with separate, incompatible species which evolved on different planets. To focus on which side of any imaginary line your ancestors lived, or which portion of the gene pool they sprang from, it just seems a little to arbitrary for me.

I mean, how long has Scotland been around? The land is quite old, but the distinction between that land and all others is far more recent (in the grand scheme of things) and the people who inhabit the land did not simply pop into existence with it but came from elsewhere. It is merely another stop on a great multi-generational journey.

The entire notion of "Scot or not" is an artificial construct, and as such the criteria for determining which category we fall into is entirely up to us. The real question is "what do you mean by 'Scot?'" Is it a legal status, an origin, a genetic issue, or something else? If I say I'm Scottish, I mean I have ancestors (well, I don't have them, they have long since become fertilizer and are in no way in my possession) who lived in Scotland. Since that is not a big deal to me, I really only say it when people ask if I'm Scottish, and only because I know that's what they mean by Scottish. When they ask if I'm from Scotland I must say no.

So, define the term "Scot" and I'll tell you the criteria.

Personally I prefer the legal standard. It's simple, pragmatic, and verifiable. And it's individualistic and alterable, rather than an immutable characteristic based on the circumstances surrounding my birth.


Note: I understand many people take great pride in their nationality/ethnicity/whatever and that for many it is a major part of how they identify themselves. I realize that my opinions may not sit well with those of you who feel that way, and so I'd like to point out that I mean no disrespect and that I am simply explaining the way I see it. You don't have to agree with my views any more than I have to agree with yours.

[David Dalglish]

People who were born in Scotland are Scots. IF your parents move to a different country & you were born in that country then you become a native of that country with Scottish ancestors. The only exception is, if your parent move tempory to another country(ie to work), & have full intensions to move back to Scotland then you are a Scot.

[bjproc]

People who were born in Scotland are Scots. IF your parents move to a different country & you were born in that country then you become a native of that country with Scottish ancestors. The only exception is, if your parent move tempory to another country(ie to work), & have full intensions to move back to Scotland then you are a Scot.

hehe, i have good fun with my girlfriend about this, her dad was serving in the scots guards at buckingham palace for a short period and she was born in Lambeth, London, so thats what it's got on her passport, so i always call her english.

am i cruel

[cessna152towser]

I agree with David Dalglish's definition here. I was born and brought up in Scotland, as were my parents and grandparents, but I also recognise my Irish ancestry, as my maternal grandfather was born into an Irish family who had just moved to Scotland about a year before he was born, and I still keep in contact with relatives from that side of the family who still live in Ireland.

[Niblox]

... you will find that the Scottish nation first came into being under an Irish Chieftan who proclaimed himself king (Kenneth McAlpine) and that the very name, Scotland, comes from the settlement of a tribe of the Irish, the Scotii, who settled there before the Romans withdrew (around 400 AD).

Bear in mind also, that the ancient and medieval historians were rather vague about the geography of these islands and referred to anyone from Scotland or Ireland as "Scots" - the confusion between the two is common.

Niblox

[Niblox]

Incidentally Alex, John Duns Scotus (c. 1266-1308) may have been born in Ireland, as the word "scotus" was the mediaeval latin term for someone who was "Irish" or "Gaelic". Given European knowledge of the geography of these islands at the time, the confusion is understandable.

John Scotus Eriugena (c. 815-877) is sometimes confused with John Duns Scotus, but he lived 400 years earlier, so he certainly didn't overlap! He was definitely Irish, and ended up as a monk and philosopher at the University of Paris (where, incidentally, John Duns Scotus also taught).

JS Eriugena was commemorated on the Irish five pound note which was replaced in 2000 by the Euro.



The name of Scotland itself is derived from the name of an Irish tribe, the Scotii, who crossed the 12 miles between Antrim and Argyll to form the joint kingdom of Dal Riada. See the website "Celtic Origins" http://groups.msn.com/CelticOrigins/language2.msnw for more details