A Modern Scottish View of Clans (and Gathering)

[Monkey@Arms]

Yes, but to take your point if one is a descendant of the victims of the clearances, why express loyalty (as some do) to the descendants of your oppressor and the system that enabled your oppression?

Best regards,

Jake

Ah, nothing like generalization...as if every clan chief oppressed every clansman/woman in history. Since I'm not a descendant of a Clearances victim, then I really can't answer that.

And please tell me how an American citizen is being "oppressed" by any clan chief today? I don't recall any "draft notices" from my chief calling me up to fight those dastardly Bruces.

T.

Note I said "if" in relation to the descendants of the clearances. Obviously, not all Clan Chiefs participated, and not all that emigrated are in that category.

Your second point was due to poor word choice on my part. I meant to say "the system that enabled their ancestors' oppression."

Best regards,

Jake

[Phil]

I am sure many present-day clan chiefs have little or nothing in common with their predecessors and can appreciate why they may find their role nowadays to be thankless. Why anyone would feel the need to "bend the knee" to them, however is completely beyond me, particularly as so much social change has taken place in this country to reduce the relevance and influence of people derived solely from an accident of their birth. In a country such as America where success is based principally on ability, reverence for inherited influence seems totally incomprehensible. I can only assume that there is a latent desire to look up to such people much in the way the late Princess Diana was revered as a fairy tale princess.

[dfmacliam]

I find this thread to be very informative and helps understand the beliefs of those in Scotland. I also know that a sense of belonging to something greater is important to so many in the States.
For years, other ethnicities have openly celebrated their heritage, to the point of seeing clothing belonging on another continent, is common. America is a melting pot of ethnicities and cultures, and there is no true American culture. People have come, to escape the hardships and servitude from the Old Country, and to make a life for themselves. They brought with them their love of their homelands, many of those from Scotland. You study the American South and you find the similarity of Scotland... The names, dialect( the Appalachian dialect is said a form of the Scots language).. The flags of the Civil War, the famed Stars and Bars Battle Flag, Alabama State flag is actually the St Patricks Cross (I know that's Irish) as well as others.
True, there is a romantizied view of what Scotland means to people these days, but it comes from the love of the Country that the forefathers brought with them, not the reasons for the leaving of the land, the servitude, the hardships.
I understand exactly what has happened because of my own personal life. I am a first generation American, a naturalized American. My family comes from Ireland by way of England... I am first generation who was not taught Gaelic, I was not sent to Catholic Church, I was actually made to fit into the American way of life. I was later told, it was because my mother did not want me to experience the wrongs she had to, growing up Irish Catholic in England.
I am proud to be Irish(descent) and I wish I had the chance to learn what was kept from me. I will wear my Saffron kilt, identifying myself as being Irish and enjoy the company of those like minded people... Who shares their love of being Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, or whatever Celtic peoples they are descended from..
I respect the views of those from Scotland, and I have learned from them... I hope to learn more about my Scots family...

[macwilkin]

You study the American South and you find the similarity of Scotland... The names, dialect( the Appalachian dialect is said a form of the Scots language).. The flags of the Civil War, the famed Stars and Bars Battle Flag, Alabama State flag is actually the St Patricks Cross (I know that's Irish) as well as others.

The Confederate saltire was not based on the St. Andrew's Cross, at least according to its designer, William P. Miles. It is a saltire, but that is a common device in heraldry, and not always associated with Scotland. Miles wanted a distinctive flag not based upon the US flag, although some ridiculed his design as a "pair of braces".

BTW, the "Stars and Bars" is not the "Battle flag" (which in itself is not correct). The former refers to the First National Flag of the CSA, whilst the latter can refer to a myriad of flags used by Confederate forces.

Regards,

Todd

[macwilkin]

I am sure many present-day clan chiefs have little or nothing in common with their predecessors and can appreciate why they may find their role nowadays to be thankless. Why anyone would feel the need to "bend the knee" to them, however is completely beyond me, particularly as so much social change has taken place in this country to reduce the relevance and influence of people derived solely from an accident of their birth. In a country such as America where success is based principally on ability, reverence for inherited influence seems totally incomprehensible. I can only assume that there is a latent desire to look up to such people much in the way the late Princess Diana was revered as a fairy tale princess.

Believe me, America is far from the classless egalitarian paradise you paint it in such romantic terms. Perhaps we Yanks aren't the only ones to buy into myths, eh?

And again, I feel you are being very unfair and making generalizations regarding all Americans and their attitudes towards clan chiefs. Like it or not, the Chief historically is the "father" of a clan, and therefore, is at least entitled to that respect. I respect my clan chief and his efforts to promote the clan's history.

And for the record, the only place I "bend the knee" is in church before and after the Eucharist.

T.

[macwilkin]

Note I said "if" in relation to the descendants of the clearances. Obviously, not all Clan Chiefs participated, and not all that emigrated are in that category.

Your second point was due to poor word choice on my part. I meant to say "the system that enabled their ancestors' oppression."

Best regards,

Jake

Point taken, Jake -- my only response would be that the clan system that did enable their ancestor's oppression was not the same as the one before Culloden.

T.

[gilmore]

I am sure many present-day clan chiefs have little or nothing in common with their predecessors and can appreciate why they may find their role nowadays to be thankless. Why anyone would feel the need to "bend the knee" to them, however is completely beyond me, particularly as so much social change has taken place in this country to reduce the relevance and influence of people derived solely from an accident of their birth. In a country such as America where success is based principally on ability, reverence for inherited influence seems totally incomprehensible. I can only assume that there is a latent desire to look up to such people much in the way the late Princess Diana was revered as a fairy tale princess.

That's pretty much it.

Americans of Scots and other British descent are by and large so far removed from that. We also are used to self-autonomy and creating ourselves, creating our own identities, often by appropriating artifacts and identities from other cultures and times as we (mis)understand them and making them our own. We may bend a knee or two, but do so in something of the spirit of a tourist in another country (or a time traveler from another time) who always has the ability, if we wish, to stop pretending and go home to the real world where we really live.

If I were you, I wouldn't complain about it. I would do what others seem to be doing, and try to figure out a way to make money off of us. But that's just me.

[beloitpiper]

I'm very proud to be a Gordon, but I will not join the Clan Gordon society. Why should I? I go to the Highland Games and various Scottish events every year and hang out with my fellow clansmen, so why should I pay to get a card that says I'm a Gordon and tell me to go events that I already attend? I know I'm linked to the House of Gordon, what more needs to be done?

As far as the Chief, I am a product of Clearances emigrants, but I don't hold it against Lord Huntly. In fact, I think it would be kinda neat to meet the Chief.

Also, I love to Romanticize Scotland, but I don't pretend like that is what happened. Sure, it's fun to think about the Jacobite Rebellion as a fight between the English and the Scots, but I'd be a damn fool if I pretended like that was AT ALL true. Just like it's more entertaining and dramatic to think of my ancestors being driven from their ancestral homeland from the evil Whoevers during the Clearances, but I know that in reality it was Gordon who removed them for land. Does this mean I'll renounce my ties with the House of Gordon? No way! It's a part of my heritage, and while I'm not about to join the Society and fly to Scotland for the Gathering, I'll proudly wear the Gordon tartan, play Cock O' The North on my pipes, and have a great time at the Gordon tent at the Highland Games every year.

[macwilkin]

I'm very proud to be a Gordon, but I will not join the Clan Gordon society. Why should I? I go to the Highland Games and various Scottish events every year and hang out with my fellow clansmen, so why should I pay to get a card that says I'm a Gordon and tell me to go events that I already attend? I know I'm linked to the House of Gordon, what more needs to be done?

Have you researched what membership dues in the society are used for, and what benefits members received? Remember that many clan societies use dues to not only "keep the lights on" as it were, but to fund genealogical research databases, clan museums and donate funds to charitable causes and to historic preservation. For example, the House of Gordon USA donates funds to the Gordon Highlanders Museum in Aberdeen (a very worthy cause) and also provides a scholarship fund to youth studying Scottish arts -- just think, if you had been a member, you might have qualified for it, and I don't know of any college students who would turn down a scholarship.

Our clan society, for example, helps sponsor a pipe band in Aberdeen, including their youth pipe band. I'm proud of the role we're playing (pun intended) in keeping piping alive in Scotland.

As far as the Chief, I am a product of Clearances emigrants, but I don't hold it against Lord Huntly. In fact, I think it would be kinda neat to meet the Chief.

Also, I love to Romanticize Scotland, but I don't pretend like that is what happened. Sure, it's fun to think about the Jacobite Rebellion as a fight between the English and the Scots, but I'd be a damn fool if I pretended like that was AT ALL true. Just like it's more entertaining and dramatic to think of my ancestors being driven from their ancestral homeland from the evil Whoevers during the Clearances, but I know that in reality it was Gordon who removed them for land. Does this mean I'll renounce my ties with the House of Gordon? No way! It's a part of my heritage, and while I'm not about to join the Society and fly to Scotland for the Gathering, I'll proudly wear the Gordon tartan, play Cock O' The North on my pipes, and have a great time at the Gordon tent at the Highland Games every year.

Don't forget, that tent you hang-out at at the games each year doesn't pay for itself. While some larger clan societies are able to reimburse their convenors for expenses, the smaller clans certainly can't. I would bet your local Gordon rep. has spent anywhere from $500-1000 on his display to attract other Gordons and to educate them about their heritage; kinda makes $25 in yearly dues pale in comparison, eh?

And do you help out at the tent, or do you just hang out? I bet they could use you -- heck, you could even pipe at the tent to attract folks -- perhaps you could trade a yearly membership out of the deal.

Regards,

Todd

[beloitpiper]

Don't forget, that tent you hang-out at at the games each year doesn't pay for itself. While some larger clan societies are able to reimburse their convenors for expenses, the smaller clans certainly can't. I would bet your local Gordon rep. has spent anywhere from $500-1000 on his display to attract other Gordons and to educate them about their heritage; kinda makes $25 in yearly dues pale in comparison, eh?

And do you help out at the tent, or do you just hang out? I bet they could use you -- heck, you could even pipe at the tent to attract folks -- perhaps you could trade a yearly membership out of the deal.

Regards,

Todd

Oh, I pipe and "work" at the tent, talking to people looking to find out more about the clan. I'm great friends with the guys that work the tent in Wisconsin, and it's true that they've invested a lot of money, but it is not the Society's money. They did it on their own out of the love of their clan, just like I do.

And I guess you're right about the scholarship and the museum (which I hope to visit someday), but for me it's just not something that appeals to me that much. With or without a society, I will always be a Gordon and so will the others that I know. We'll always gather at the games and sing "A Gordon For Me"!